In Your Opinion, Who was/is the Greatest Military Commander of All-Time?

Plutarch
Plutarch Members Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2011 in The Social Lounge
And explain why.

I may be going with the conventional norm here but I have to say Alexander the Great. I heard that he never lost a battle in his life. Regardless, the amount of accomplishments he made in such a short amount of time is very impressive.

Erwin Rommel (yes he was technically a "? " but apparently he was against ? and ? and ended up dying for it), Napoleon, Benedict Arnold (traitorous but still good), Hannibal, Ghengis Kahnn, Spartacus, and Caesar are all notables I respect.

On the other hand, ? , George Washington?, Marcus Junius Brutus, and a lot of French dudes were known for thier failures.
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Comments

  • bornnraisedoffCMR
    bornnraisedoffCMR Members Posts: 1,073 ✭✭
    edited June 2011
  • HafBayked
    HafBayked Members Posts: 16,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Shaka Zulu

    damn beat me to it....oh well....Master P lol
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Khalid Bin Walid

    or


    Genghis Khan
  • Plutarch
    Plutarch Members Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    And Step wrote: »
    Khalid Bin Walid
    Shaka Zulu

    will definitely read up on these guys because sadly I don't know to much about them. I blame American schools.
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
  • Alkindus
    Alkindus Members Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    ----Tutmosis III

    Qin Shi Huangdi

    maybe Cyrus of achaemenid
  • @My_nameaintearl
    @My_nameaintearl Banned Users Posts: 2,609 ✭✭
    edited June 2011
    the guy who was the brains behind genghis khan's military operations: Subutai.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Genghis Khan without question.......2nd I give to Alexander the Great, although he just used his father's army really well.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    the guy who was the brains behind genghis khan's military operations: Subutai.

    He was good but Genghis was the one with the charisma and intelligence to bring everyone together.
  • waterproof
    waterproof Members Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    KING DAVID

    Sun TZU

    Hannibal Barca

    Shaka Zulu

    Alexander the Great

    Julius Cesar

    Toussaint Louverture

    Vo Nguyen Giap

    Georgi Zhukov

    Chief Sitting Bull

    Robert E Lee

    Gangis Khan
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited June 2011
    well, guys, the correct answer is Saladin.


    Plutarch wrote: »
    I may be going with the conventional norm here but I have to say Alexander the Great.
    also a good selection
    Plutarch wrote: »
    Erwin Rommel (yes he was technically a "? " but apparently he was against ? and ? and ended up dying for it), Napoleon, Benedict Arnold (traitorous but still good), Hannibal, Ghengis Kahnn, Spartacus, and Caesar are all notables I respect.
    Rommel's overrated on this list (probably Spartacus too) and Arnold probably doesn't have enough to compare
    Plutarch wrote: »
    On the other hand, ? -
    ? shouldn't even qualify as all he did was meddle
    Shaka Zulu
    also very good, but i think he gets beaten out by otherwise-mentioned people
    the guy who was the brains behind genghis khan's military operations: Subutai.
    also a good selection
    waterproof wrote: »
    Vo Nguyen Giap
    overrated
    waterproof wrote: »
    Georgi Zhukov
    not in the same caliber as the rest
    waterproof wrote: »
    Chief Sitting Bull
    as a military commander? no
    waterproof wrote: »
    Robert E Lee
    overrated, especially on any list that neglects Grant
  • waterproof
    waterproof Members Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    janklow wrote: »
    well, guys, the correct answer is Saladin.



    also a good selection

    Rommel's overrated on this list (probably Spartacus too) and Arnold probably doesn't have enough to compare

    ? shouldn't even qualify as all he did was meddle

    also very good, but i think he gets beaten out by otherwise-mentioned people

    also a good selection

    overrated

    not in the same caliber as the rest

    as a military commander? no

    overrated, especially on any list that neglects Grant

    you are the first person i heard say Robert E. Lee is overated, i know some say Stonewall Jackson might of been better, but why you believe Robert E. Lee, General Giap is overrated and why you feel the Zhukov is not in the same class as Patton, Mcauthur, Ike, Marshall, Mao Zedong, The desert Fox, Yamamoto ect.. and why you think Grant is a top military minded general
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Toussaint L'Ouverture deserves another mention. He took on Napoleon's armies and made Haiti the first independent slave state ever in 1804. Napoleon at the time had the most powerful empire in the world, and Toussaint's armies eventually defeated them. Doesn't get more impressive than that. Toussaint is on Waterproof's avy.
  • shootemwon
    shootemwon Members Posts: 4,635 ✭✭
    edited June 2011
    waterproof wrote: »
    you are the first person i heard say Robert E. Lee is overated, i know some say Stonewall Jackson might of been better, but why you believe Robert E. Lee, General Giap is overrated and why you feel the Zhukov is not in the same class as Patton, Mcauthur, Ike, Marshall, Mao Zedong, The desert Fox, Yamamoto ect.. and why you think Grant is a top military minded general

    I've heard some people say that Nathan Bedford Forrest (who would later be one of the first members of the KKK) was the most brilliant Confederate General in the Civil War. I don't really know enough to say. All I know is that the south got sonned into oblivion so any of those rebel ? had room for improvement.
  • waterproof
    waterproof Members Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    shootemwon wrote: »
    I've heard some people say that Nathan Bedford Forrest (who would later be one of the first members of the KKK) was the most brilliant Confederate General in the Civil War. I don't really know enough to say. All I know is that the south got sonned into oblivion so any of those rebel ? had room for improvement.

    LOL!!!!!!! i dont give a ? about they ? either but they know war....Abe should of hung Robert E Lee for treason and not accpeting his offer to join the union
  • whar67
    whar67 Members Posts: 542
    edited June 2011
    Toussaint L'Ouverture deserves another mention. He took on Napoleon's armies and made Haiti the first independent slave state ever in 1804. Napoleon at the time had the most powerful empire in the world, and Toussaint's armies eventually defeated them. Doesn't get more impressive than that. Toussaint is on Waterproof's avy.

    Toussaint L'Ouverture dies in French custody in 1803. He never fought Napoleon. He only fought the French from 1789 to 1793 when the Governor of Haiti abolished slavery and for a few months in 1802. Though the Governor exceeded his authority when the French revolution abolished all slavery in French controlled lands the act became permanent. When the French issued this decree Toussaint switch his allegiances from Spain back to the French.

    This switch dramatically increased his enemies. The Spanish were on his border. Most of his former comrades did not follow him when he switched sides and the British took this opportunity to land 4000 troops on his doorstep. Toussaint drove the Spaniards out and bottle the British up in the port they had landed at. Eventually most that remain sided with the Spaniards return to support Toussaint. From 1794 to 1801 Haiti remained a french colony with Toussaint declaring himself a loyal French subject. With the rise of Napoleon France attempted to reassert it authority in Haiti, Toussaint had made treaties with French enemies which went against French wishes, sending 20,000 troops.

    Toussaint response was to destroy the ports burn the central plains and retreat to the mountains trusting that disease would decimate the French. Unfortunately mis-communication had some ports destroyed while others allowed the French access. With the French on haiti soil several monthes of inconclusive engagements followed until Toussaint negotiated a peace that included his promise to retire. Betrayed a few weeks later Toussaint was arrested and sent to France.

    It was Jean-Jacques Dessalines who then lead Haitian forces and eventually defeated the French. He placed himself in charge changed the name of the land to Haiti, declared it an all black nation, forbade whites from owning land, and then forcibly put people to work on the plantations. Dessalines image would be rehabilitated in the 20th century however he was assassinated in 1806 and reviled for effectively returning people to slavery.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    whar67 wrote: »
    Toussaint L'Ouverture dies in French custody in 1803. He never fought Napoleon. He only fought the French from 1789 to 1793 when the Governor of Haiti abolished slavery and for a few months in 1802. Though the Governor exceeded his authority when the French revolution abolished all slavery in French controlled lands the act became permanent. When the French issued this decree Toussaint switch his allegiances from Spain back to the French.

    This switch dramatically increased his enemies. The Spanish were on his border. Most of his former comrades did not follow him when he switched sides and the British took this opportunity to land 4000 troops on his doorstep. Toussaint drove the Spaniards out and bottle the British up in the port they had landed at. Eventually most that remain sided with the Spaniards return to support Toussaint. From 1794 to 1801 Haiti remained a french colony with Toussaint declaring himself a loyal French subject. With the rise of Napoleon France attempted to reassert it authority in Haiti, Toussaint had made treaties with French enemies which went against French wishes, sending 20,000 troops.

    Toussaint response was to destroy the ports burn the central plains and retreat to the mountains trusting that disease would decimate the French. Unfortunately mis-communication had some ports destroyed while others allowed the French access. With the French on haiti soil several monthes of inconclusive engagements followed until Toussaint negotiated a peace that included his promise to retire. Betrayed a few weeks later Toussaint was arrested and sent to France.

    It was Jean-Jacques Dessalines who then lead Haitian forces and eventually defeated the French. He placed himself in charge changed the name of the land to Haiti, declared it an all black nation, forbade whites from owning land, and then forcibly put people to work on the plantations. Dessalines image would be rehabilitated in the 20th century however he was assassinated in 1806 and reviled for effectively returning people to slavery.

    Yeah I know Toussaint himself never fought Napoleon (I read a book on him just last month) but he did fight French forces, along with Spaniards and some British (always or usually won). I just said his forces fought Napoleon's forces. Toussaint's discipline and bravery rubbed off on the Haitian military, and that military would remain strong enough to kick Napoleon's ass.

    Good post though, and Dessalines doesn't get enough credit.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    waterproof wrote: »
    LOL!!!!!!! i dont give a ? about they ? either but they know war....Abe should of hung Robert E Lee for treason and not accpeting his offer to join the union

    Hanging Robert E. Lee would have been a bad idea, as much as I truly hate the son of a ? . Lee was still very popular in the south, and hanging him probably would have created guerrilla warfare in the south. Americans don't fight guerrilla wars very well, as Afghanistan proves.
  • waterproof
    waterproof Members Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Hanging Robert E. Lee would have been a bad idea, as much as I truly hate the son of a ? . Lee was still very popular in the south, and hanging him probably would have created guerrilla warfare in the south. Americans don't fight guerrilla wars very well, as Afghanistan proves.

    ......Because if my memomry is correct, i believe it was on the history channel on one of their Civil War shows and they was saying that ABE wanted every confederate general after the war to be brought to Washington to be charged with Treason and some he wanted hanged.. He had a liking to Robert E Lee because Lee was One of Abe's Frst Choice to lead the Union Troops since Lee wasnt Pro Slavery, but Lee was pro State and he went with his state, So Abe thought about hanging them southern generals.

    Yeah U.S aint built for Guerilla Warfare Giap in Vietnam taught U.S. a good lesson on that, Im reading up on Toussaint Louverture right now and he's one of the brilliant mind in tatical war the world ever known for picking out the weakness of the other forces and exposing them. There's a lot of Black Military men in history that dont get the mention on greatest list. That's why i put him with, King David, Shaka and Hannibal even Ramese II was a good war general.
  • Plutarch
    Plutarch Members Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    great posts guys. lots of knowledge being dropped here...
    Hanging Robert E. Lee would have been a bad idea, as much as I truly hate the son of a ? . Lee was still very popular in the south, and hanging him probably would have created guerrilla warfare in the south. Americans don't fight guerrilla wars very well, as Afghanistan proves.

    or Vietnam...
    Edit: oh, just read waterproof's post. Yeah, Vietnam dealt a pretty sharp blow to America's ego.
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited June 2011
    waterproof wrote: »
    you are the first person i heard say Robert E. Lee is overated, i know some say Stonewall Jackson might of been better-
    Stonewall Jackson is INCREDIBLY overrated
    waterproof wrote: »
    but why you believe Robert E. Lee, General Giap is overrated
    Lee is overrated because while incredibly skilled in a defensive sense, his offensives were nothing to write home about, and remember, he has a stellar reputation. when you're that highly rated, it's easy to be overrated. Giap is overrated because he gets credit as being some kind of VC mastermind, when in fact he's a competent general who had a lot more than irregulars on his side. good general, i just think he's overrated by some and not in contention for greatest ever.
    waterproof wrote: »
    -and why you feel the Zhukov is not in the same class as Patton, Mcauthur, Ike, Marshall, Mao Zedong, The desert Fox, Yamamoto ect..
    remember that i said "not in the same caliber as the rest" regarding the previous list, not this current one. Zhukov's accomplishments are much more about numbers over skill compared to many of the above-listed, so i wouldn't rank him with them. but i would rank him well over MacArthur, who i despise and who's quite overrated; he compares favorably to Eisenhower and Marshall in a military sense because he commanded troops in ways they did not; and i don't think THAT highly of Patton and Rommel. he's worse than Rommel if you take lower-ranking Rommel; he's not much worse if you take latter Rommel.
    waterproof wrote: »
    and why you think Grant is a top military minded general
    the quickest way to put it is that if you think Lee's good enough to make such a list, then consider that Grant's the guy that beat Lee. he also fought a lot of his battles in the Western part of the war, which gets MUCH less attention.
    Toussaint L'Ouverture deserves another mention. He took on Napoleon's armies and made Haiti the first independent slave state ever in 1804. Napoleon at the time had the most powerful empire in the world, and Toussaint's armies eventually defeated them. Doesn't get more impressive than that. Toussaint is on Waterproof's avy.
    well, he doesn't really have the body of work to compare to some of the listed guys, which is not his fault, but still. i would say that Wellington gets more "fighting Napoleon" credit than Toussaint, for example. but there are a lot of skilled guys who simply didn't HAVE to fight that much.
    shootemwon wrote: »
    I've heard some people say that Nathan Bedford Forrest (who would later be one of the first members of the KKK) was the most brilliant Confederate General in the Civil War.
    very skilled officer, absolutely reprehensible human being. it's possible to rate him highly, but he also had a lower level of command than some guys. he gets big points for his grasp of mobile warfare, but i don't think that's something he alone pioneered.
    waterproof wrote: »
    Yeah U.S aint built for Guerilla Warfare Giap in Vietnam taught U.S. a good lesson on that
    not really, for a couple of reasons:

    01. North Vietnam did not have stunning success MILITARILY winning the war. a good comparison is Dien Bien Phu versus Khe Sanh: Giap absolutely shamed the French at the former, but could not defeat the US at the latter. offensives like Tet and Easter were more casualty-causing failures than successes (especially Tet). now you can defend him on some counts (different rank for Khe Sanh and/or "didn't mean to capture it," for example), but i wouldn't say it's accurate to say he bested the US ... militarily.

    02. consider that Giap oversaw the PAVN, which was a conventional military. people often understate the North Vietnamese military side of the equation, which makes guys like Giap look better, but the fact is that we weren't just talking about guerrilla warfare.
  • Maximus Rex
    Maximus Rex Members Posts: 6,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    Nobody mentioned Patton or Hannibal.
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    The King of Kings and Lord of Lords of Course. He destroys with the word of His mouth. All who oppose Him will be crushed without Him breaking a sweat. Plus He is undefeated on the battle field. And all who trust in Him will also ride on white steads in victory at the end of this age. Do you know Him?
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited June 2011
    Nobody mentioned Patton or Hannibal.
    uh... Hannibal was mentioned in the first post. they both got a couple of mentions.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2011
    The King of Kings and Lord of Lords of Course. He destroys with the word of His mouth. All who oppose Him will be crushed without Him breaking a sweat. Plus He is undefeated on the battle field. And all who trust in Him will also ride on white steads in victory at the end of this age. Do you know Him?

    Are you talking about Jesus? He never fought battles, and if you are talking about spiritual battles, his own followers still whine about Satan's "mighty power" until this very day......some winner he is. And by the way, there are more Muslims and Hindus worldwide than Christians. I guess Mohammed and Krishna are the winner of spiritual wars than.