Honestly, a lot of people would think Jesus was a ? if he was around now.
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fiat_money wrote: »Is this some kind of clever speak relating Jesus's purported transmutation of water into wine and Galante's prohibition-era rise to power?
If so, well done.
i cant take credit for that, but the parallels are striking. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Most of your questions, especially the latter ones are things that could only be answered by ? . However, I think your interpretation of Jesus' point on earth maybe a little off. If you believe that Jesus is ? made flesh, then his life directly addresses your first complaint. In that line of thinking, Jesus was ? 's way of sharing the human experience and showing humanity what we could accomplish if we lived righteously and with faith.
If you believe that Jesus was simply ? 's word made flesh and not intrinsically divine, the he is still ? 's way of demonstrating to us how we should live as human and the archetype for what a truly righteous person should be. Either way, this was ? 's way of walking in our shoes while also providing a model for proper living.
I also think it's a little unfair to say Jesus had a superiority complex. In fact, I'd say that's the opposite of what Jesus had. He was constantly minimizing his own miracles and telling people that they could do what he's done and more if only they had faith. In fact, the clearest incidents of Jesus displaying annoyance came when people showed less capability than him. It doesn't quite fit to say he had a superiority complex if he believed that everyone should be on the same level as he. In fact, that's really why I say people would think Jesus was a ? . He is clearly more faithful and spiritually grounded than anyone else, but he doesn't acknowledge that. As a result, his expectations of people may be a little unreasonable and people's failure to meet those unreasonable expectations were what led to his outbursts.
I don't get any of your points. Jesus was never a true interpretation of what it is like for a regular person to live on earth. He was some type of miracle baby that did not even come from flesh let the bible tell it. -
BiblicalAtheist wrote: »Are you joking? I just said few thousand, you just said the bible said thousands, so wtf is the problem?
I misread what you said. Chill out man, it's really not that serious. lol I didn't realize you said thousands because honestly wouldn't make sense to make light of the fact that he had thousands of followers back then. There was no internet or mass media so for someone like Jesus to get that kinda following is impressive and revolutionary. You acknowledging he had that man followers kinda defeats your own point.The True Flesh wrote: »Great thread.
I love how Yeshua (Jesus) was raw as ever. He didn't pull no punches.That's something I really have learned to embrace over the years. It illustrates just how easy it is to confuse righteousness with friendliness. Too many so called christians are outwardly friendly and pleasant only to be vain greedy backstabbing covetous ? . Jesus was about brutal honesty and it was quite rude by most peoples standards.
The fig tree thing is deep. Jealousy is a sin, however ? Himself is jealous, some people have a hard time accepting that because it doesn't seem fair or right by OUR standards.
We must have patience. Did you ever see anything in the Bible about ? being patient? of course not. because He transcends time itself.
It's possible that there are many other good human virtues that are not applicable to ? .
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of ? , but those that be of men.Matthew 16:21-23
In the above passage Jesus calls Peter satan and says he offended him, and all Peter was trying to do was look out for him.
Even the people closest to him didn't understand how things really were supposed to go down or why. There are many examples of that,and most of the time it led to a response from Jesus that showed frustration. Jesus's righteousness and foresight so superceded everyone elses that it left him in a perpetual state of facepalm.
Jesus was unapologetic and downright gangsta, never hyperfriendly and compromising.......it couldn't have been any other way.
let's keep this thread going.
PEACE
Very good post.I don't get any of your points. Jesus was never a true interpretation of what it is like for a regular person to live on earth. He was some type of miracle baby that did not even come from flesh let the bible tell it.
I never said Jesus was an interpretation for what it is like for a regular person to live on earth. I said Jesus was the archetype for what a truly righteous person should be, the perfect specimen. I said he was ? 's attempt to do exactly what you said which is relate to humans by sharing in the human experience. Even if you take his divine origin literally, the Bible still stresses that Jesus was human. And as I've pointed out in this thread, throughout his life he expressed very human traits such as annoyance and fear. Of course no normal human would be able to match up to him, but he was a living and breathing representation of the goal that all of ? 's people should strive towards. Despite the nature of his birth he as a flesh and blood being. As shown in the scripture in the first post, he got hungry and needed to eat real food. As shown in the circumstances surrounding his death, he bled real blood and felt real pain. Being that he was ? 's word made flesh, he may have been better equipped to deal with the pitfalls associated with human life, but he was a human nonetheless. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »I misread what you said. Chill out man, it's really not that serious. lol I didn't realize you said thousands because honestly wouldn't make sense to make light of the fact that he had thousands of followers back then. There was no internet or mass media so for someone like Jesus to get that kinda following is impressive and revolutionary. You acknowledging he had that man followers kinda defeats your own point.
Wo0o0o0o0o0W........ in my first post, then the proceeding...... ? it.... -
(hmm...to post, or not to post?)
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Ok first off and foremost, love - in spirit and in truth - towards Christ, and second towards everyone else, including the bros handling the word.
With that said, in this thread, two points concerning the Lord's character were made in error, and need to be addressed.
but unfortunately i don't have time right now
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BiblicalAtheist wrote: »Wo0o0o0o0o0W........ in my first post, then the proceeding...... ? it....
Man, what are you talking about. In your first post, you said people during that time already thought Jesus was a ? . To which I responded that he petty well liked and revolutionary according to the Bible. Your second post was the one where you mentioned him having thousands of followers. I admitted I misread that, but I don't see how him having thousands of followers suggests that he wasn't revolutionary or revered. So what's the problem? I swear some of you dudes just like to bang away at the keys and don't really care if what you say makes reasonable or logical sense.solid analysis wrote: »Ok first off and foremost, love - in spirit and in truth - towards Christ, and second towards everyone else, including the bros handling the word.
With that said, in this thread, two points concerning the Lord's character were made in error, and need to be addressed.
but unfortunately i don't have time right now
I never understand posts like this. If you think there is something that is in error, then point that error out. If you don't have the time to do that then why post at all. Why not just wait til you have the proper time necessary to identify and support your point? -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Man, what are you talking about. In your first post, you said people during that time already thought Jesus was a ? . To which I responded that he petty well liked and revolutionary according to the Bible. Your second post was the one where you mentioned him having thousands of followers. I admitted I misread that, but I don't see how him having thousands of followers suggests that he wasn't revolutionary or revered. So what's the problem? I swear some of you dudes just like to bang away at the keys and don't really care if what you say makes reasonable or logical sense.
Ya got me.... -
Something came up before i was able to finish my post and i posted wut i had started anyway....but it doesn't rly matter...does it?The Lonious Monk wrote: »I never understand posts like this. If you think there is something that is in error, then point that error out. If you don't have the time to do that then why post at all. Why not just wait til you have the proper time necessary to identify and support your point?
I'm not even trying to go through this whole thread and pic out all the slip ups, but here's a few things that immediately stuck out to me :
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.He also wasn't super patient all the time either.
2.Jealousy is a sin, however ? Himself is jealous, some people have a hard time accepting that because it doesn't seem fair or right by OUR standards.
3.We must have patience. Did you ever see anything in the Bible about ? being patient? of course not. because He transcends time itself.
I think i can understand the point yall trying to get at, but saying things in this manner about the Lord's character is to go just a tad bit too far.
Number 1. "Wasn't super patient all the time either" So basically you saying that eventually, even the Lord runs out of patience? I can understand that. but here it almost look like you saying the Lord has a manner of dealings with mankind that should be characterized by impatience - which would be wrong. The word tells us ? is love. In describing love it says - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant" 1 Corinthians 13:4
number 2. Again - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant"
Also - "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that ? is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5) <
this is a metaphor. Light and darkness represents good and evil. In the Lord is no evil at all. To say jealousy is a sin and then say the Lord is jealous begs for a clarification of what is meant by 'jealous'? Because i just showed where the word says the lord doesn't envy. (How could he? everything already belongs to him. which means that for the Lord to be a jealous ? must mean something else besides envious) So i would appreaciate some clarification on that.
number 3 - the lord is not patient? Again - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant" 1 Corinthians 13:4 When paul is describing what LOVE IS to us, keep in mind patience is the FIRST thing he mentions about love, and i believe it is so for a reason. ? shows patience towards us and we as followers of Christ need to do the same towards others.
"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of ? leads you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).
that's all for now...i gotta burn out again -
solid analysis wrote: »Something came up before i was able to finish my post and i posted wut i had started anyway....but it doesn't rly matter...does it?
I wasn't really just aiming it at you. I was talking about that type of post in general. I mean it's not that crucial, but like I said, I never understood the point of a half post. Just wait til you can really put your thoughts before you hit the "Post" button. That's just my opinion though. I'm not saying it's a rule or anything.I think i can understand the point yall trying to get at, but saying things in this manner about the Lord's character is to go just a tad bit too far.
Number 1. "Wasn't super patient all the time either" So basically you saying that eventually, even the Lord runs out of patience? I can understand that. but here it almost look like you saying the Lord has a manner of dealings with mankind that should be characterized by impatience - which would be wrong. The word tells us ? is love. In describing love it says - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant" 1 Corinthians 13:4
No, I'm not saying that Jesus didn't have patience. I'm saying that there were instances in the Bible where his patience seemed to run out when dealing with people, and when you really consider what's going on in those instances, his outbursts might not have been all that reasonable by normal human standards. However, we know that Jesus wasn't a normal human in the truest sense of the word. I do agree that saying he was characterized by impatience would be wrong. That's not what I meant, but he was subject to it at times.number 2. Again - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant"
Also - "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that ? is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5) <
this is a metaphor. Light and darkness represents good and evil. In the Lord is no evil at all. To say jealousy is a sin and then say the Lord is jealous begs for a clarification of what is meant by 'jealous'? Because i just showed where the word says the lord doesn't envy. (How could he? everything already belongs to him. which means that for the Lord to be a jealous ? must mean something else besides envious) So i would appreaciate some clarification on that.
Honestly, I'm not the best person to ask that question because I'm a cynic. However, my answer would be that it's a "Do as I say and not as I do type of thing." Think how parents tell kids not to do things even though the parents themselves do it. At first that my seem hypocritical, but when you get older, it becomes clear that there are things that you simply aren't fit to handle as a child that your parents can. Therefore there are things that they can do that you can't.
It's similar with us and ? . He's the Father, we are the kids. There are things that are appropriate for him. That simply aren't for us. For instance he's a jealous ? . He feels that all our praise and worship is due to him. However, if ? created the world and all of us,then all praise is due to him. So if we give that praise to false gods, our actions are an affront to ? and he would have every right to express jealousy. That said, as humans, we have no such position of elevation over each other, therefore such jealousy wouldn't make sense. Wrath is another example. The Bible warns against such a feeling, but ? exhibited it multiple times in the Bible. We have no right to reach that level of anger with anyone being that we are all capable of doing wrong to others. ? on the other hand is not susceptible to such negative impulses, so anytime his ire is raised, it's justified.
At the end of the day, sin/evil/wrongdoing in Christianity are all defined as being acts against the will of ? . His actions can never technically be sinful becuse even if he exhibits things that are considered sinful in us such as jealousy or wrath, they would be inline with his will. Again, just because he tells us that we shouldn't do something doesn't mean it's wrong for him.
number 3 - the lord is not patient? Again - "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant" 1 Corinthians 13:4 When paul is describing what LOVE IS to us, keep in mind patience is the FIRST thing he mentions about love, and i believe it is so for a reason. ? shows patience towards us and we as followers of Christ need to do the same towards others.
"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of ? leads you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).
that's all for now...i gotta burn out again
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Saying "Love is patient" is not the same as saying that Jesus was above showing impatience.Matthew 16:5 When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread. 6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Take this example. Jesus clearly gets annoyed with the disciples. They are worried because they didn't bring any food and he basically snaps at them because after all they've seen him do, they still worry about trifles such as that when he's trying to teach them something deeper. Look at the tone of what he's saying. You can't tell me that doesn't smack of impatience with his disciples continuing to be stuck in their old mindset.Matthew 17:14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”
17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.
Now, you can't tell me Jesus isn't showing a litle frustration here. What he said was basically the equivalent of: "What's wrong with you people? Do I have to do everything around here?"
Again, I'm not saying Jesus was an impatient person. And I'm not saying he exhibited impatience to the point that he overrode his love for his people. However, there is really no arguing that at times Jesus got annoyed because no matter how many wondrous things he did, people still didn't show the kind of faith that he was looking for. He had several outbursts like this throughout the gospels.
