What's up everybody! Just a quick message. We will be relaunching AllHipHop.com with the goal of keeping the community front and center. I have worked with Jamal and select moderators, to make sure The Illl Community's needs are being addressed as we evolve. We are encouraging you to use the new platform.

We will NOT be closing the current community, but we will be porting user data over to the new system over time, so please get used to using the new community!

We will be working on it every single day until it's exactly what you want!

Please feel free to join now, test, as we are in beta:

https://www.allhiphop.com

Mr. Smith and Mr. Anderson explain Why We Are (Matrix)

phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
edited April 2010 in R & R (Religion and Race)


This classic exchange between Neo and Mr. Smith is the essence of the Matrix and really the essence of the dilemma that one faces when they awaken to the fact that all we are and all that we do is nothing more than an empty game that we play with ourselves and with others.

What is our motivation if there is no god to hear us, to reward us for our good deeds, no justice or salvation? Why do we go on?
«1

Replies

  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?



    Neo: Because I choose to.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    SMH @ you believing that life is just an "empty game". No wonder the world is in the condition that it is in. I thought you had some sense about you Mr. Phanatron. But I was wrong. Epic SMH @ you. Life is just an "empty game"? Really? Disgusting. :mad:
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    SMH @ you believing that life is just an "empty game". No wonder the world is in the condition that it is in. I thought you had some sense about you Mr. Phanatron. But I was wrong. Epic SMH @ you. Life is just an "empty game"? Really? Disgusting. :mad:

    Clearly you don't think life is an empty game. You find purpose and meaningfulness in life and you demonstrate it in your evangelic outreach. For you, and probably most others, the notion that life could be without purpose is incomprehensible. In fact, even for those who agree that life lacks purpose or meaning, most find this to be pervasively depressing.

    This is what makes Neo's response that much more powerful. Even considering the fact that life is inherently empty, one can still choose to act. The mere choice of action can (and does) provide purpose and order where there otherwise wouldn't be any.

    BTW, I don't think the world is any particular condition.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    phanatron wrote: »
    Clearly you don't think life is an empty game. You find purpose and meaningfulness in life and you demonstrate it in your evangelic outreach. For you, and probably most others, the notion that life could be without purpose is incomprehensible. In fact, even for those who agree that life lacks purpose or meaning, most find this to be pervasively depressing.

    This is what makes Neo's response that much more powerful. Even considering the fact that life is inherently empty, one can still choose to act. The mere choice of action can (and does) provide purpose and order where there otherwise wouldn't be any.

    BTW, I don't think the world is any particular condition.

    You've reduced yourself to living like an animal. This is what happens when people deny God. They lose their sense of self, purpose, and meaning. They thus become blind to truth and open to every lie and scheme conceivable. You've lowered yourself to living like a pig. All of mankind has done this. When man lives like a pig, he acts like a pig, walks like a pig, thinks like a pig, and talks like a pig. You have come accustomed to living in pig slop Mr. Phanatron. That's why Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom unless he is born-again. When your born once, you die twice. When your born twice, you die once. You have forgotten who your maker is Mr. Phanatron and the evidence is in the pudding. Jesus said, by their fruit ye shall know them. Your fruit is clearly evident and quite frankly it's sad. It's sad to see a man reduce himself to a pig like state. No meaning, no purpose, no function, no desire, no thought. It's truly sad.

    I would ask you how you can believe the world isn't in any particular condition, but it's pointless because you are lost. You have no clue at all. Your stuck in a stupor because of your lost condition. You are the epitome of what it means to be lost. God have mercy on you.
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    SMH @ you believing that life is just an "empty game". No wonder the world is in the condition that it is in. I thought you had some sense about you Mr. Phanatron. But I was wrong. Epic SMH @ you. Life is just an "empty game"? Really? Disgusting. :mad:

    Are you fuckin retarted really? If you cant see the world is in all this war and turmoil and shit over religious beliefs you need to go off yourself for real.
  • The GMWThe GMW Posts: 259
    edited March 2010
    You've reduced yourself to living like an animal. This is what happens when people deny God. They lose their sense of self, purpose, and meaning. They thus become blind to truth and open to every lie and scheme conceivable. You've lowered yourself to living like a pig. All of mankind has done this. When man lives like a pig, he acts like a pig, walks like a pig, thinks like a pig, and talks like a pig. You have come accustomed to living in pig slop Mr. Phanatron. That's why Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom unless he is born-again. When your born once, you die twice. When your born twice, you die once. You have forgotten who your maker is Mr. Phanatron and the evidence is in the pudding. Jesus said, by their fruit ye shall know them. Your fruit is clearly evident and quite frankly it's sad. It's sad to see a man reduce himself to a pig like state. No meaning, no purpose, no function, no desire, no thought. It's truly sad.

    I would ask you how you can believe the world isn't in any particular condition, but it's pointless because you are lost. You have no clue at all. Your stuck in a stupor because of your lost condition. You are the epitome of what it means to be lost. God have mercy on you.

    Damn... this dude is trying to have a civil conversation with you and you're calling him a stupefied pig because he doesn't believe in your god... SMH

    Anyway, as for the topic I agree with the T/S that the only meaning in life is the meaning assigned to it by the individual. Your life is as meaningful or as meaningless as you want it to be.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    Are you fuckin retarted really? If you cant see the world is in all this war and turmoil and shit over religious beliefs you need to go off yourself for real.

    So your telling me that America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq because of Christianity? Please tell me your not serious.
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    The GMW wrote: »
    Damn... this dude is trying to have a civil conversation with you and you're calling him a stupefied pig because he doesn't believe in your god... SMH

    Anyway, as for the topic I agree with the T/S that the only meaning in life is the meaning assigned to it by the individual. Your life is as meaningful or as meaningless as you want it to be.

    The truth needs to be told. Sometimes that truth is a hard pill to swallow. You can't sugarcoat the truth Mr. GMW. When you take God out of the hearts and minds of the world, men become animals. This will be realized in it's full fruition when the book of Revelation opens. Get right with God Mr. GMW. He wants to heal your broken heart and bind up your open wounds. Be healed today my friend.
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    You've reduced yourself to living like an animal. This is what happens when people deny God. They lose their sense of self, purpose, and meaning. They thus become blind to truth and open to every lie and scheme conceivable. You've lowered yourself to living like a pig. All of mankind has done this. When man lives like a pig, he acts like a pig, walks like a pig, thinks like a pig, and talks like a pig. You have come accustomed to living in pig slop Mr. Phanatron. That's why Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom unless he is born-again. When your born once, you die twice. When your born twice, you die once. You have forgotten who your maker is Mr. Phanatron and the evidence is in the pudding. Jesus said, by their fruit ye shall know them. Your fruit is clearly evident and quite frankly it's sad. It's sad to see a man reduce himself to a pig like state. No meaning, no purpose, no function, no desire, no thought. It's truly sad.

    I would ask you how you can believe the world isn't in any particular condition, but it's pointless because you are lost. You have no clue at all. Your stuck in a stupor because of your lost condition. You are the epitome of what it means to be lost. God have mercy on you.

    Lol, well, I can tell that you probably do wish me the best so I appreciate that.

    And I would agree that it would be easier to simply believe in an all powerful God who would make everything okay, no matter how bad things seemed. I mean ultimately, isn't that the pitch? Life is empty? Looking for direction? Can't find permanent peace and happiness? Turn your life over to Christ. He says in his word that you cast all your cares upon him because he cares for you. Jesus loves you and all you have to do is believe in him.

    I understand that. The need to believe in something is part of our need to control the world around us. By understanding God and knowing what he wants from us, we can effectively control what was once unctontrollable. The same temptation is there for scientist. The need to find a material explanation for the world allows for us to better control was once uncontrollable.

    While these things are comforting, they are not indications of strength. They are acknowledgements of weakness. The idea of something we cannot understand or control, the idea of simply being, is a frightening idea.
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    So your telling me that America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq because of Christianity? Please tell me your not serious.

    No but was in not religious beliefs that led up to the war in afganistan?, All the suicide bombing arent religious, most of the wars throughout history werent provoked by religion? Hitler didnt want to rid the world of jews because of religion? Iraq your right on it was just for oil but there are few wars that have happened because of sommething other than religion.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    phanatron wrote: »
    Lol, well, I can tell that you probably do wish me the best so I appreciate that.

    And I would agree that it would be easier to simply believe in an all powerful God who would make everything okay, no matter how bad things seemed. I mean ultimately, isn't that the pitch? Life is empty? Looking for direction? Can't find permanent peace and happiness? Turn your life over to Christ. He says in his word that you cast all your cares upon him because he cares for you. Jesus loves you and all you have to do is believe in him.

    I understand that. The need to believe in something is part of our need to control the world around us. By understanding God and knowing what he wants from us, we can effectively control what was once unctontrollable. The same temptation is there for scientist. The need to find a material explanation for the world allows for us to better control was once uncontrollable.

    While these things are comforting, they are not indications of strength. They are acknowledgements of weakness. The idea of something we cannot understand or control, the idea of simply being, is a frightening idea.

    Thats why God said this........

    "26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

    Little do you know, your just confirming the word of God my brother. God rules my friend. Stop denying His power. You can't box God and win.
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • DoUwant2go2HeavenDoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatPosts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    No but was in not religious beliefs that led up to the war in afganistan?, All the suicide bombing arent religious, most of the wars throughout history werent provoked by religion? Hitler didnt want to rid the world of jews because of religion? Iraq your right on it was just for oil but there are few wars that have happened because of sommething other than religion.

    Again, your talking about people who worship demons. I am talking about Jesus Christ, The true and living God. Religion kills. Jesus Christ saves. Do you know Him?
    It's the blood moon season! Joel 2:31-32!

    GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT!!!!!!!!!

    Go to Jerusalem! 5777



    Amen.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    Thats why God said this........

    "26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

    Little do you know, your just confirming the word of God my brother. God rules my friend. Stop denying His power. You can't box God and win.

    I have no idea what this relates to. I'm not trying to box with God, your arms are too long.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    When you take God out of the hearts and minds of the world, men become animals.

    Is mind god? Because so far that is the only thing making us "more" than animals. Remove our mind and then we are but animals.
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    Again, your talking about people who worship demons. I am talking about Jesus Christ, The true and living God. Religion kills. Jesus Christ saves. Do you know Him?

    So the inquistions, crusades, slavery, blatant racism, murdering doctors, ethnic cleansing, human sacrifice, the systematic fucking of children these are all Gods things then right. These are all Christian done things so they must not be evil so please elaborate to me how these are good for people? What about the gaza strip it is a war waged over two beliefs in god. Why does your god not do the right thing and tell his people its okay to let them have it, the earth is my home.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    Is mind god? Because so far that is the only thing making us "more" than animals. Remove our mind and then we are but animals.

    I think he is saying God in our mind is what's important. If we believe in a God, we are more than animals.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    So the inquistions, crusades, slavery, blatant racism, murdering doctors, ethnic cleansing, human sacrifice, the systematic fucking of children these are all Gods things then right. These are all Christian done things so they must not be evil so please elaborate to me how these are good for people? What about the gaza strip it is a war waged over two beliefs in god. Why does your god not do the right thing and tell his people its okay to let them have it, the earth is my home.

    Some might say that religion or Christianity doesn't make anything that you mentioned right; Christianity lets us know that the things that you listed are wrong. While some might blame their actions on the religion, the religion never condones such behavior and as such, the behavior is the failing of man, not of the religion.

    I wouldn't say it, just helping out DoUwant2go2Heaven.
  • The GMWThe GMW Posts: 259
    edited March 2010
    The truth needs to be told. Sometimes that truth is a hard pill to swallow. You can't sugarcoat the truth Mr. GMW. When you take God out of the hearts and minds of the world, men become animals. This will be realized in it's full fruition when the book of Revelation opens. Get right with God Mr. GMW. He wants to heal your broken heart and bind up your open wounds. Be healed today my friend.

    I'm curious as to what you mean when you say "men become animals." There are millions of atheists in the world who lead very civilized lives -- married with kids, careers, college degrees, etc. People who have assigned their own meaning to their lives, and lead happy, fulfilled existences. Would you describe these people as "animals"? What qualities do they share with literal animals?
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    phanatron wrote: »
    Some might say that religion or Christianity doesn't make anything that you mentioned right; Christianity lets us know that the things that you listed are wrong. While some might blame their actions on the religion, the religion never condones such behavior and as such, the behavior is the failing of man, not of the religion.

    I wouldn't say it, just helping out DoUwant2go2Heaven.


    So why are Christians still waging war if its not condoned? In a time when Jesus was fresh in everyones story why were the Knights Templar formed they were specifically put together to capture solomons temple back why would he they not just leave it be. And please show me the verses where all that is frowned upon in the bible id love to see them, I have read the bible time and time again and have been to church 3-4 times a week until I was about 16 so please let me see these verses saying these things are wrong cause I dont recall studying or reading about them.
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    The GMW wrote: »
    I'm curious as to what you mean when you say "men become animals." There are millions of atheists in the world who lead very civilized lives -- married with kids, careers, college degrees, etc. People who have assigned their own meaning to their lives, and lead happy, fulfilled existences. Would you describe these people as "animals"? What qualities do they share with literal animals?

    Im athiest, have never been in trouble in my life, never commited a crime, dont do drugs, dont even drink, play pro basketball overseas, been married for 5 years, donate over 30,000 dollars a year to charities. But I guess somehow im an animal.

    Acually my life has been better since I turned to science for answers rather than the book
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    So why are Christians still waging war if its not condoned? In a time when Jesus was fresh in everyones story why were the Knights Templar formed they were specifically put together to capture solomons temple back why would he they not just leave it be. And please show me the verses where all that is frowned upon in the bible id love to see them, I have read the bible time and time again and have been to church 3-4 times a week until I was about 16 so please let me see these verses saying these things are wrong cause I dont recall studying or reading about them.

    Well, I don't want to speak too much for DoUwanna, but I do think he would probably start out by rejecting the Knights Templar and then quote quote something from the Bible..maybe 'Blessed are the peacemakers' or more likely some verse that isn't likely to satisfy your question.

    My point in all of this is that we can always come up with some answer, and if you want to believe, you will come up with some answer. When talking with most Christians, you aren't disagreeing with them, you are disagreeing with God. Or at least that's how they frame the response. They'll quote some Bible verse or use some biblical language and if you call bullshit, then you aren't calling bullshit on them, you are calling it on God.

    The belief, the willingness to believe is a powerful thing. It changes the whole world around them. It gives them confidence and certainty. There is a certain amount of joy and peacefulness because they genuinely believe that God is on their side (or that they are on God's side).

    The real question is what happens when someone knows that the belief system is empty and just a man made construct? DoUwant2go2Heaven almost seems to agree with Mr. Smith? If you don't believe, how are you any better than an animal? Why would anyone try to make the world a better place knowing that it is an empty shell game. Who would commit time and energy fighting for 'justice' when there is never any ultimate justice? As Mr. Smith asked, Why Mr. Anderson do you keep fighting (trying)?

    The answer is that we can choose to make our lives better. We can choose to make a better society. We can choose to live in peace. Not for some future reward, but the benefit it brings right now. We can cultivate peace and love in our own hearts; not because God commands it, but because peace and love are their own reward. It isn't about fear or coercion, it's about understanding who we are as individuals and being ok with it.
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2010
    phanatron wrote: »
    Well, I don't want to speak too much for DoUwanna, but I do think he would probably start out by rejecting the Knights Templar and then quote quote something from the Bible..maybe 'Blessed are the peacemakers' or more likely some verse that isn't likely to satisfy your question.

    My point in all of this is that we can always come up with some answer, and if you want to believe, you will come up with some answer. When talking with most Christians, you aren't disagreeing with them, you are disagreeing with God. Or at least that's how they frame the response. They'll quote some Bible verse or use some biblical language and if you call bullshit, then you aren't calling bullshit on them, you are calling it on God.

    The belief, the willingness to believe is a powerful thing. It changes the whole world around them. It gives them confidence and certainty. There is a certain amount of joy and peacefulness because they genuinely believe that God is on their side (or that they are on God's side).

    The real question is what happens when someone knows that the belief system is empty and just a man made construct? DoUwant2go2Heaven almost seems to agree with Mr. Smith? If you don't believe, how are you any better than an animal? Why would anyone try to make the world a better place knowing that it is an empty shell game. Who would commit time and energy fighting for 'justice' when there is never any ultimate justice? As Mr. Smith asked, Why Mr. Anderson do you keep fighting (trying)?

    The answer is that we can choose to make our lives better. We can choose to make a better society. We can choose to live in peace. Not for some future reward, but the benefit it brings right now. We can cultivate peace and love in our own hearts; not because God commands it, but because peace and love are their own reward. It isn't about fear or coercion, it's about understanding who we are as individuals and being ok with it.

    I can respect what your saying but at the same time, I became an athiest because I see athiest doing more to help civilization then religion has, christians and other religions alike automatically assume that your possesed or evil when we are often times helping people out more by action than they do by preaching from a book. If they are religious great its good to stand for something but at the same time It annoys me how they discredit things that are real, its proven fact the Teplars existed they will argue that, the earths age, gospels being written by followers not disciples themselves, Jesus being a buddhist his teen years, These things are factual proof yet the blantenly turn the other cheek and dismiss them as fraudulant when they are not. The reason I stopped believing and attending church is because I looked at things from the both sides and realized that so much is proven wrong through science and through archeology its hard to believe the bible.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2010
    phanatron wrote: »
    I think he is saying God in our mind is what's important. If we believe in a God, we are more than animals.

    Oh yeah you're right, I miss read what he said. But what I said still fits, our mind, not god in our mind is what makes us "more" than animals.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    I can respect what your saying but at the same time, I became an athiest because I see athiest doing more to help civilization then religion has, christians and other religions alike automatically assume that your possesed or evil when we are often times helping people out more by action than they do by preaching from a book. If they are religious great its good to stand for something but at the same time It annoys me how they discredit things that are real, its proven fact the Teplars existed they will argue that, the earths age, gospels being written by followers not disciples themselves, Jesus being a buddhist his teen years, These things are factual proof yet the blantenly turn the other cheek and dismiss them as fraudulant when they are not. The reason I stopped believing and attending church is because I looked at things from the both sides and realized that so much is proven wrong through science and through archeology its hard to believe the bible.

    There isn't much here that I disagree with. I too went to church frequently and was taught to treat other religions skeptically. Once I conducted the same analysis on Christianity as I did on other religions, the flaws were obvious.

    It is conceivable that Christianity is true, but it is also conceivable that all other major religions are true. If we accept that most all religions exclude the possibility of other religions being equally true, we can say that all religions are likely equally false. For me, I found that Buddhism contained the lease assumptions and wasn't centered around a non-provable metaphysical hypothesis. It just so happens that almost all Buddhist are also athiest.
  • phanatronphanatron Posts: 121 ✭✭
    edited March 2010
    Oh yeah you're right, I miss read what he said. But what I said still fits, our mind, not god in our mind is what makes us "more" than animals.

    I would agree with what you said. I think we underestimate the power of our minds. Let's take 3 'god' centered religions. Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam. All three conflict with each other. All three call for different ways to act. All three cannot be right. Yet, regardless of whether they are right or not, people act as if they are. Generation after generation, the belief in these religions have shaped the world that we live in. Even a non-believer can see how powerful the belief is. This is a tribute to the power of the mind itself. It also shows that God need not exist at all for millions, if not billions, of people to shape their lives in such a manner that conforms to the mere belief in God.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.