abe lincoln: man or myth? hero or political opportunist?

elliott_argon
elliott_argon Members Posts: 286 ✭✭
edited May 2010 in The Social Lounge
it's been a min since i posted in here, but...i came across some stuff on lincoln going through my old school notes and i remembered a discussion i had a while back in the race and religion room about old abe. i think it went to the tune of "lincoln was the man because he freed the slaves" or something like that. i find it interesting that history tends to cast him in that light when historical documents and speeches clearly show that he was content to enforce slave rule in established slave states, he was close to kicking black people out of the country after so-called emancipation and did very little for black people until it became politically expedient (with the rest of the humane world watching the u.s.) to frame the civil war as a war against slavery. perhaps this has nothing to do with anything, but, i welcome any thoughts on the subject.
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Comments

  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited April 2010
    IMO I think Abe did the whole freeing slave things cause he knew it would spark a civil war, I think he believed the south would win and after the war he could set into law that we slave again because the North now wouldnt have had such a backlash toward slavery because they knew they were far outnumbered.
  • tri3w
    tri3w Members Posts: 3,142 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    IMO I think Abe did the whole freeing slave things cause he knew it would spark a civil war, I think he believed the south would win and after the war he could set into law that we slave again because the North now wouldnt have had such a backlash toward slavery because they knew they were far outnumbered.

    Me and my history Teach Always use to discuss this all the time, it was an interesting debate............he strongly believed that Linclon Was doin what he thought was Morally Correct............I always thought, ( And i felt History proved my point Correct) that he simply did it because of Necessity; he simply didnt have a choices in the matter. he was losing the war and the North was losing interest in fighting it...........he felt that if he made it a war of morality, if he could give it a "Just Cause" it would re Galavzine the north's interst in the war and raise up the Morale in the troops (WHich it Did)..........i do believe that he felt that Slavery was Inherently wrong and should be ended, but i dont think he was the Pro-aboliontist that evrybody was painting him as, Slavery wasnt the major priorty..........i do believe he was eventually goin to end it though......
  • Swiffness!
    Swiffness! Members Posts: 10,128 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    Frederick Douglass vouched for the man. That's good enough for me.

    Frederick Douglass opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other ? opinion
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited April 2010
    i find it interesting that history tends to cast him in that light when historical documents and speeches clearly show that he was content to enforce slave rule in established slave states, he was close to kicking black people out of the country after so-called emancipation and did very little for black people until it became politically expedient (with the rest of the humane world watching the u.s.) to frame the civil war as a war against slavery. perhaps this has nothing to do with anything, but, i welcome any thoughts on the subject.
    briefly:

    -some of the documents/speeches that show his "contentment" with slavery are due to political expediency or are intentionally misquoted (there's one of the latter that we see around here every so often);
    -there are, conversely, many documents/speeches from Lincoln that show he had a moral objection to slavery, whatever his personal beliefs about blacks and/or federal powers were;
    -compare Lincoln's words and deeds to those of many of his peers and tell me why people spend so much time bashing Lincoln (beyond the whole "striving for historical accuracy" concept) and not bashing the thousands of far more offensive people from the time.
    IMO I think Abe did the whole freeing slave things cause he knew it would spark a civil war, I think he believed the south would win and after the war he could set into law that we slave again because the North now wouldnt have had such a backlash toward slavery because they knew they were far outnumbered.
    wait... the Civil War had already started by the time of the Emancipation Proclamation... so how would "Abe [do] the whole freeing slave things cause he knew it would spark a civil war?" and send, if the South would have won, how would Lincoln have set anything into law?

    really, this post makes no sense
  • musicology1985
    musicology1985 Members Posts: 4,632 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    Abe was a brilliant tactician. his moves throughout his presidency was always about politics (preserving the union) & economics (keeping the currency out of central banking control.) so he's actually just like Andrew Jackson. if u are black or native? their stories are murky, mysterious, heroic & due to current historians, painful. if your white? their is nothing not to love about both men.

    what Abe did regarding the slaves was all about hitting the Confederates where it hurt.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited April 2010
    janklow wrote: »
    wait... the Civil War had already started by the time of the Emancipation Proclamation... so how would "Abe [do] the whole freeing slave things cause he knew it would spark a civil war?" and send, if the South would have won, how would Lincoln have set anything into law?

    really, this post makes no sense

    I was jokin, I was trying my black militant everything is bigger then we know ? out
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited April 2010
    I was jokin, I was trying my black militant everything is bigger then we know ? out
    actually, i am relieved. i was thinking "what the hell is ChozenWun thinking? he's never this ridiculous"
  • elliott_argon
    elliott_argon Members Posts: 286 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    lincoln's own words and speeches show that he disagreed with 'the extension of slavery' (which means he would enforce the fugitive slave act, and southern slavery, but would not agree with allowing anymore slave states to enter the union) and also that it should 'eventually' come to an end. however, as we all know, when it comes to politicians, speeches and actions are two different beasts. while frederick douglass did 'vouch' for lincoln, he also said, "It must be admitted, truth compels me to admit, even here in the presence of the monument we have erected to his memory, Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man. " douglass says that lincoln was "the white man's president, entirely devoted to the welfare of the white man."

    douglass also said in the same speech, "He was ready to execute all the supposed guarantees of the United States Constitution in favor of the slave system anywhere inside the slave states. He was willing to pursue, recapture, and send back the fugitive slave to his master, and to suppress a slave rising for liberty, though his guilty master were already in arms against the Government."

    and, so as to keep the proper context of douglass' speech, the former slave also said, "Our faith in him [lincoln] was often taxed and strained to the uttermost, but it never failed...when he strangely told us that we were the cause of the war; when he still more strangely told us that we were to leave the land in which we were born; when he refused to employ our arms in defense of the Union; when, after accepting our services as colored soldiers, he refused to retaliate our murder and torture as colored prisoners; when he told us he would save the Union if he could with slavery; when he revoked the Proclamation of Emancipation of General Fremont; when he refused to remove the popular commander of the Army of the Potomac, in the days of its inaction and defeat, who was more zealous in his efforts to protect slavery than to suppress rebellion; when we saw all this, and more, we were at times grieved, stunned, and greatly bewildered; but our hearts believed while they ached and bled. "

    lincoln was a politician, plain and simple. a gifted politician, nonetheless. but the great emancipator?? that's simply false.
  • "A Tout le Mond
    "A Tout le Mond Members Posts: 121
    edited April 2010
    Opportunist. He, said outright if slavery would of been more beneficial to the country he would have allowed it. He is made a hero, but IMO he didnt do a lot, he did things to make his image look good.
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    abraham-lincoln-picture.jpg

    This is what I said:

    "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

    "I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man." - Charleston, iLLINOIS - 1858

    "I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union-. a letter to James C. Conkling dated August 26, 1863."



    Close thread.
  • tri3w
    tri3w Members Posts: 3,142 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    And Step wrote: »
    abraham-lincoln-picture.jpg

    This is what I said:

    "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

    "I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man." - Charleston, iLLINOIS - 1858

    "I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union-. a letter to James C. Conkling dated August 26, 1863."



    Close thread.
    Does this Answer evrybodys questions??? lol
  • Swiffness!
    Swiffness! Members Posts: 10,128 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    And Step wrote: »
    "I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man." - Charleston, iLLINOIS - 1858


    This was said during a public debate in response to his opponent accusing him of being pro-interracial marriage. As you can imagine, interracial marriage was a big no-no in 1858. Abe had to reassure whites that Mandingo wasn't comin to pipe White America's daughters, they wasn't ready for that yet.
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited April 2010
    Swiffness commented on the second quote, but the first one is the one that everyone quotes partially because it makes Lincoln look worse:
    And Step wrote: »
    "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
    the larger quote from the letter to Greeley (which is the origin of this quote):

    "I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

    I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free."

    emphasis obviously mine, but here's the point: whatever you think of Lincoln, that quote gets selectively pulled to make him look worse.
  • elliott_argon
    elliott_argon Members Posts: 286 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    yeah, i purposely stayed away from the greeley quote, since it is most often used and then rebutted as the last few posts show. i do find it telling, however to examine douglass' perspective of lincoln, seeing that douglass was lincoln's so-called friend and he readily admitted that lincoln was the white man's pres, etc etc, the quotes i previously posted
  • unspoken_respect
    unspoken_respect Members Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    Well, how much credit should be given for doing the right thing?
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    janklow wrote: »
    Swiffness commented on the second quote, but the first one is the one that everyone quotes partially because it makes Lincoln look worse:the larger quote from the letter to Greeley (which is the origin of this quote):

    "I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

    I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free."

    emphasis obviously mine, but here's the point: whatever you think of Lincoln, that quote gets selectively pulled to make him look worse.

    Well that means your a political opportunist and hypocritical. That whole paragraph in my opinion(which I declined to quote), makes him look worse. If as a man you compromise your personal beliefs for political expediency then you really don't wish every man could be free. Do you?

    He makes himself look worse.
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    Swiffness! wrote: »
    This was said during a public debate in response to his opponent accusing him of being pro-interracial marriage. As you can imagine, interracial marriage was a big no-no in 1858. Abe had to reassure whites that Mandingo wasn't comin to pipe White America's daughters, they wasn't ready for that yet.

    Problem is, he mentions social and politcal equality in that same quote. You can't explain that away. Dicking down Ms. Anne was a side bar.

    Racism would be diminished if we would speak straight words to each other and call a ? a ? .

    Don't ? in my face and tell me it's rain. It is pebble in the shoe annoying when people try to tell me I am not seeing what I am seeing.

    People jump all over Jeremiah Wright, but this man gets a pass, for obvious reasons. He was a white president.
  • bornnraisedoffCMR
    bornnraisedoffCMR Members Posts: 1,073 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    political opportunist and a war monger..

    Thanks Abe tu:
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    Well, how much credit should be given for doing the right thing?

    If he is white, a lot of credit should be given.
  • white715
    white715 Members Posts: 7,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2010
    I don't know I think Abe was confused as we our about how he felt about black folk.
  • TANGLUNG
    TANGLUNG Members Posts: 806 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    I’m glad to see some people know some of the things Lincoln said. Everything he did was for the glory of the Union.
  • busayo
    busayo Members Posts: 857
    edited April 2010
    political opportunist and a war monger..

    Thanks Abe tu:

    how was abe a war monger? didn't the confederates start the war?
  • busayo
    busayo Members Posts: 857
    edited April 2010
    TANGLUNG wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some people know some of the things Lincoln said. Everything he did was for the glory of the Union.

    well he was the president of the union.
  • bornnraisedoffCMR
    bornnraisedoffCMR Members Posts: 1,073 ✭✭
    edited April 2010
    busayo wrote: »
    how was abe a war monger? didn't the confederates start the war?

    lol, uhh no...but they had it comin
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited April 2010
    And Step wrote: »
    If as a man you compromise your personal beliefs for political expediency then you really don't wish every man could be free. Do you?
    i wouldn't say "political expediency" for that quote, as we're talking about a Lincoln who was already president (although it's a fair charge for some of the earlier stuff). the main issue is the trailing sentence that you didn't quote, which states that this is a distinction between what he sees as appropriate for the presidency versus what he sees as appropriate for himself. so it'd be compromise over the functions of the office which, granted, is still not what you want to hear. it'd be better if he'd equated the two directly (as in, "i was elected president with a mandate to stop this slavery nonsense period"), of course; it just seems a little false to pick the worst possible quotes and say "eh, Lincoln didn't give a ? about slavery at all."
    lol, uhh no...but they had it comin
    wait: Southern states declared secession, seized federal property and shot at federal forces. how exactly did they not start this war?