Was Jesus referring to Yahweh/Jehovah or someone else???
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beenwize
Members Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
In the Bible the Old Testament ? Yahweh/Jehovah is described as having hands, feet, back parts, and a face... How can someone who is suppose to be an "invisible spirit" have these attributes?
Also in the Old Testament Yahweh/Jehovah was in the Mount with Moses and many ppl heard his "voice" and Moses seen his shape.
In the New Testament Jesus NEVER mentions the name Yahweh and always refers to "Abba, Father" Jesus also states that the Father that sent him we have NEVER seen his shape nor heard his voice at any time... So if the shape of Yahweh was seen and his voice heard in the Old Testament then who is he really? And who is Jesus referring to?
BELOW Jesus says we have NEVER heard or seen the shape of the Father that sent him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 1:18
No man hath seen ? at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ? of the Father, he hath declared him.
BELOW are some examples of Yahweh/Jehovah being seen and heard in the Old Testament and being described as having hands, feet, face and back parts. Keep in mind that he is being describes as having BODY PARTS and not invisible like the Father Jesus was referring too.
Deuteronomy 5:24
And ye said, Behold, the LORD our ? hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that ? doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Exodus 33:22-23
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus 24:10
And they saw the ? of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw ? , and did eat and drink.
Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and ? answered him by a voice.
Deuteronomy 4:33 Has any other people heard the voice of ? speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived?
Also in the Old Testament Yahweh/Jehovah was in the Mount with Moses and many ppl heard his "voice" and Moses seen his shape.
In the New Testament Jesus NEVER mentions the name Yahweh and always refers to "Abba, Father" Jesus also states that the Father that sent him we have NEVER seen his shape nor heard his voice at any time... So if the shape of Yahweh was seen and his voice heard in the Old Testament then who is he really? And who is Jesus referring to?
BELOW Jesus says we have NEVER heard or seen the shape of the Father that sent him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 1:18
No man hath seen ? at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ? of the Father, he hath declared him.
BELOW are some examples of Yahweh/Jehovah being seen and heard in the Old Testament and being described as having hands, feet, face and back parts. Keep in mind that he is being describes as having BODY PARTS and not invisible like the Father Jesus was referring too.
Deuteronomy 5:24
And ye said, Behold, the LORD our ? hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that ? doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Exodus 33:22-23
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus 24:10
And they saw the ? of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw ? , and did eat and drink.
Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and ? answered him by a voice.
Deuteronomy 4:33 Has any other people heard the voice of ? speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived?
Comments
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Jesus was talking about the people he was speaking to, not humanity in general.
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Jesus was talking about the people he was speaking to, not humanity in general.
no Jesus said that NOBODY has ever seen or heard the voice of the Father that sent him... In the Bible Yahweh is depicted as being seen and heard... So obviously Jesus couldn't have been referring to Yahweh as his Father. -
Also PAY ATTENTION to these scriptures who are they referring too?
Galatians 4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know ? , you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
But now that you know ? —or rather are known by ? —how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces?
Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. -
Jesus was talking about the people he was speaking to, not humanity in general.
i'll let the scriptures speak.
John 1:18
No man hath seen ? at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ? of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from ? ; only he has seen the Father.
1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen ? ; but if we love one another, ? lives in us and his love is made complete in us. -
In the scriptures below we see Yahweh dwelling in the "thick darkness"
1 Kings 8:12
Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
Psalm 18:11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him--the dark rain clouds of the sky.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
In the scriptures below Yeshua says the Father that sent him dwells in LIGHT and has no darkness in him. There seems to be a DIFFERENCE between Yahweh and the Father Jesus is referring too.
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: ? is light; in him there is no darkness at all. -
good question... whats your view on who he was talking about?
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young_reezy wrote: »good question... whats your view on who he was talking about?
It don't seem as if Yahweh is the Father that Jesus was referring too... As we see the scriptures don't agree.
Yahweh has been seen and had his voice heard. He is also described as having body parts.
Jesus refers to a Father that is invisible spirit which nobody has ever seen or heard. -
What kinda ?
"Ye shall see my backparts, but not my face"
? was giving ? backshots? No wonder the romans and catholic priest dwell in homosexuality -
I don't think Yahweh is the Father that Jesus was referring too... As we see the scriptures don't agree.
Yahweh has been seen and had his voice heard. He is also described as having body parts.
Jesus refers to a Father that is invisible spirit which nobody has ever seen or heard.
do you think Jesus studied in Egypt during the lost years of his life that the Bible doesn't mention? -
young_reezy wrote: »do you think Jesus studied in Egypt during the lost years of his life that the Bible doesn't mention?
that's possible... there are more gospels that were excluded from the KJV Bible. At the Council of Nicea in Rome they SELECTED which gospels they would include in the New Testament and they distorted some of the scriptures.
Do some research on the gnostic (Nag Hammadi) gospels that were found in Egypt in 1945. They are almost 2,000 years old and contain other books that were written by Jesus Apostles. The Romans attempted to destroy all these gospels during the Crusades & Inquisition but the ones found in Egypt survived and reveal a lot of information. -
Anthropomorphic = a good place to start in the dictionary.
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Anthropomorphic = a good place to start in the dictionary.
That's the key word right there. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Anthropomorphic = a good place to start in the dictionary.
hmmm this does not really answer the question as Yahweh was heard and seen in the Old Testament.
Jesus says his father had never been seen or heard AT ANY TIME. If a book says Moses heard ? 's voice then obviously he heard ? 's voice and spoke with him.
But If Yahweh and Jesus are the same then what about this?
Old Testament - YAHWEH
Numbers 21:5
And the people spake against ? , and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
New Testament - JESUS
Luke 11:11
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Anthropomorphic = a good place to start in the dictionary.
lol if you can't explain it then....
Like always, it's either "? did it", "just have faith", or "it's anthropomorphic"...
lmao -
why r u showing scriptures which say ? /elohim, when you know damn well that ? is not translated from YHWH/YAHWEH in those scriptures...its referring to the angels.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=KJV
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
its lord that is translated from YHWH in those scriptures, and it isn't talking about the most high creator, its still speaking of a angel/? speaking or doing acts in the name of the most high YHWH.
very simple to udnerstand, as i explained in the other thread -
One Spliff wrote: »why r u showing scriptures which say ? /elohim, when you know damn well that ? is not translated from YHWH/YAHWEH in those scriptures...its referring to the angels.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=KJV
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
its lord that is translated from YHWH in those scriptures, and it isn't talking about the most high creator, its still speaking of a angel/? speaking or doing acts in the name of the most high YHWH.
very simple to udnerstand, as i explained in the other thread
Actually the scriptures say YAHWEH in the Hebrew and I have proof in the links below... It does not mention anything about an angel in any of these scriptures, that would be your own private interpretation. In the instances in the Bible when an angel appeared it always stated it to be an Angel such as wen the Angel came to Mary and etc.
Deuteronomy 5:24
http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/5-24.htm
Exodus 33:11
http://biblos.com/exodus/33-11.htm
Exodus 33:21
http://biblos.com/exodus/33-21.htm
Deuteronomy 5:22
http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/5-22.htm
Below is an example of an angel in the scriptures... Notice it uses the word ANGEL.
1 Chronicles 21:16
And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. -
no Jesus said that NOBODY has ever seen or heard the voice of the Father that sent him... In the Bible Yahweh is depicted as being seen and heard... So obviously Jesus couldn't have been referring to Yahweh as his Father.
No, he said "Ye", which is like "You".
You have not seen him or heard his voice at any time. (in your life)
Stop reaching. -
The bible also cleary states that ? has a body.
We are created in his image. We have a body.
You guys trip me out trying to confound those without faith.
The bible is simple, and true. -
The bible also cleary states that ? has a body.
We are created in his image. We have a body.
You guys trip me out trying to confound those without faith.
The bible is simple, and true.
The Old Testament says we were created by Yahweh and as you see I showed you that he has a body...
But the Father Jesus is referring to is INVISIBLE and was NEVER seen or heard... Didn't Adam & Eve speak to Yahweh? which means they heard his voice!
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible ? , the firstborn of every creature:
John 4:24
? is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
let the scriptures speak!
John 1:18
No man hath seen ? at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ? of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from ? ; only he has seen the Father.
1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen ? ; but if we love one another, ? lives in us and his love is made complete in us. -
Actually the scriptures say YAHWEH in the Hebrew and I have proof in the links below... It does not mention anything about an angel in any of these scriptures, that would be your own private interpretation. In the instances in the Bible when an angel appeared it always stated it to be an Angel such as wen the Angel came to Mary and etc.
Deuteronomy 5:24
http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/5-24.htm
Exodus 33:11
http://biblos.com/exodus/33-11.htm
Exodus 33:21
http://biblos.com/exodus/33-21.htm
Deuteronomy 5:22
http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/5-22.htm
Below is an example of an angel in the scriptures... Notice it uses the word ANGEL.
1 Chronicles 21:16
And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
u need to learn how to read...
i was clearly referring to
ex 24:10
ex 19:19
deu 4:33
those were the scrips u posted in yur original post, which have the word ? /elohim and NOT YHWH.
ITS LORD WHICH IS TRANSLATED FROM YHWH, which once again is still in reference to the ? /elohim that is doing acts on the most high's behalf. -
The Old Testament says we were created by Yahweh and as you see I showed you that he has a body...
But the Father Jesus is referring to is INVISIBLE and was NEVER seen or heard... Didn't Adam & Eve speak to Yahweh? which means they heard his voice!
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible ? , the firstborn of every creature:
John 4:24
? is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
let the scriptures speak!
John 1:18
No man hath seen ? at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the ? of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from ? ; only he has seen the Father.
1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen ? ; but if we love one another, ? lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
I never said he did not have a body. That is not to be argued.
Dont remember Jesus saying he is invisible. He said only one from ? can see him. So he must have an image.
Please understand this. You and folks like you who try to read a writing with dozens of books written over centuries trying to point out contratictions,
understand this: those you lead astray were not there in the first place. What you have a problem with is the definition of faith.
Which is believing in something that you dont have absolute proof of. Christianity by defintion cant be proven.
True christians know this. The "proof" is thru our personal relationship with christ, and the truth he places in our hearts.
Thanks tho. -
I never said he did not have a body. That is not to be argued.
Dont remember Jesus saying he is invisible. He said only one from ? can see him. So he must have an image.
Please understand this. You and folks like you who try to read a writing with dozens of books written over centuries trying to point out contratictions,
understand this: those you lead astray were not there in the first place. What you have a problem with is the definition of faith.
Which is believing in something that you dont have absolute proof of. Christianity by defintion cant be proven.
True christians know this. The "proof" is thru our personal relationship with christ, and the truth he places in our hearts.
Thanks tho.
Proverbs 14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto ? , a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
PEACE -
Proverbs 14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
PEACE
lol. It's peace now.
Trust me, i have looked. Have sat in Humanities classes with professors who believe what you believe
and were more brilliant than you. The same thing comes up, do you have faith or not? The same bible, and even
book (Proverbs) which teaches you to have faith, is the same one you try to use to dissuade it.
It doesnt work. -
One Spliff wrote: »u need to learn how to read...
i was clearly referring to
ex 24:10
ex 19:19
deu 4:33
those were the scrips u posted in yur original post, which have the word ? /elohim and NOT YHWH.
ITS LORD WHICH IS TRANSLATED FROM YHWH, which once again is still in reference to the ? /elohim that is doing acts on the most high's behalf.
It doesn't matter because in the scriptures I quoted for you with links it says that Yahweh was SEEN and HEARD.... Yeshua stated nobody has every seen or heard his Father.
And no if it referred to angels it would have said so in the scriptures... Don't make up your own interpretation. -
lol. It's peace now.
Trust me, i have looked. Have sat in Humanities classes with professors who believe what you believe
and were more brilliant than you. The same thing comes up, do you have faith or not? The same bible, and even
book (Proverbs) which teaches you to have faith, is the same one you try to use to dissuade it.
It doesnt work.
Lol
Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
