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Reason Debates 3: UPTOWN (CONNEXX) vs Sionb55 (voting is over)

5th Letter5th Letter Black Identified Extremist Posts: 37,068 Regulator
edited July 2010 in The Reason
This is the Reason Debates 3, just like the previous debates these are here to stimulate healthy debates in various subjects about hip hop. This debate will remain open for 24 hours, after that time the debate will be over, each poster must post one at a time, each poster is only allowed a total of 3 tries. for example poster A goes first then poster b goes second, then poster A, poster B. No editing once your work is submitted that's it, if you are caught you will lose a vote. There will be a 450 word limit. Also for the lurkers please do not post until after the debate is over. As for voting each poster participating in the Reason Debates 3 is encouraged to vote in the debates as well. When voting please give a detailed reason why you're voting for whoever you're voting for, also vote for whoever made the better argument and NOT THE SIDE YOU AGREE WITH, I will use discretion if I see a vote based on personal opinion and not count that vote. Anyway good luck to both debaters. Whichever debater can go first it doesn't matter.

This seems to have been a popular topic on the Reason throughout the years but if Eminem were "black" would he have been as successful?

UPTOWN (CONNEXX)- Yes

Sionb55- No
Fuck who's the baddest a persons status depends on salary
That buck that bought that bottle could have struck the lotto

Replies

  • hrap-120hrap-120 Posts: 9,449 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2010
    Murder was the debate that they gave me!!!

    I woulda killed this.
  • SionSion Moderator, Legion of Trill, AHH Content Producer, AHH Editor Posts: 45,663 Regulator
    edited June 2010
    NO he wouldnt. If Em were black he wouldnt be much different than the casual blk conscious or lyrical MC - the type that "supposedly" "cant sell" b/c the masses aint tryna buy that. You HAVE to consider that his race does have a significant impact on his success theres no question about it. In fact the major audience for commercial/mainstream music is predominantly white & make up for the majority of sales in music at the same time, they can familiarize w/ Eminem more effectively b/c of where hes from (trailer park in detroit, sucide, drug problems etc.). We can even look at other artists such as Bubba Sparx & Paul Wall - those artists donned "black images" & were sold to blk audiences almost exclusively but NONE attained the height of success Em has (Paul Wall barely broke plat respectively & Bubba Sparks i believe gold or 300k). Even Eminem has acknowledged that he wouldnt have sold what he sells if he were black (in song white america).... i mean.... that in itself says a lot. He's well aware that he has certain advantages just off the strength of his race, he may have had some success but not on not nearly on the same level.


    Look at Em's whole "beef" w/ his own mother - being that in the black community our mothers are held in very high regard he wouldnt have been able to get away w/ dissing her like that. Even his war against his own Baby Mother, there wasnt an artist at the time who was so vibrant about wanting to kill their ex-wife & making songs about it that could appeal to a white audience & wen it came out protesters even wanted to Eminem blacklisted. In turn that controversy helped put the spotlight on Eminem but look at Holla Point or RZA's "You Aint Shit". Those songs spoke to many blk men but it didnt resonate well w/ whites b/c of taboo, cultural differences & perceptions w/ race.


    I think this track speaks for itself:
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    jono wrote: »
    This is the folly of the internet. Its become a bastion of misinformation, rumors, conspiracies and propaganda. A place where a person with no face or name can make accusations at any time with no verification or credentials and brainwash a small segment of people.
    T. Sanford wrote: »
    Message to the trills of the IC: May Legion Of Trill be your enemies downfall
  • UPTOWNUPTOWN Posts: 13,009 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    this topic is simple ... if eminem were black he would be just as successful. how do we know this? because since vanilla ice, there has not been a successful white rapper even tho we have had a ton of options. if anything, musically, its harder on eminem because he's white. when a white boy from a trailer park near detroit picks up a microphone and wants to rap and participate in black culture, he will receive the attention of all who are on hand. not because he is getting his "fair shot" but because everybody in the audience (EVEN OTHER WHITE PEOPLE) are gonna say to themselves "this white boy better be good". the burden of proof is on his shoulders even heavier, no one cares about his rep in the street, or if he is "gangsta" or "credible". they only care about one thing ... can. he. rap??

    master p ... and his brother silk the shocker were two of the worst rappers you ever heard. even their ad libs sounded like they were taking a shit ( uunnnnhhhhhhhhhh) ... but how many records did master p sell??? thats right .... multi platinum.

    so if we say that eminem is black, but give him the same catalouge, we would have to change some of the details and ingredients that were put into his songs. ON "stan" for example, instead of some crazed fan kidnapping his girlfriend and driving off a bridge trying to emulate who he believes eminem is, the black eminem would be being emulated by some young kid who wants to sell dope or have street cred... and before the black eminem can return his letter ... the kid may have shot someone or went to jail for a long period of time for drug possesion. this idea would have been brilliant if someone like jay z pulled it off ... and if it had that same powerful bass driven track ... the hip hop music buyers would have been all over it. black eminem = same success as white eminem

    now lets put the black eminem in that same situation with his kids mom. eminem is in and out of love with this girl, he loves her but she drives him crazy they fight etc in front of their kid. now, put someone like nas or andre 3000 in that same instance so we can visualize a black eminem in that situation. there have been a couple rappers who made a few songs about baby moms etc ... BUT NO ONE HAS EVER WENT IN LIKE EMINEM about this topic. he could talk about how she was messing with other guys and doing wrong by his daughter just like the white eminem... but add in the fact that she sends him to jail for child support all the time ... and the fact thats she's shopping/clubbing with the money (instead of using drugs like the white eminem claimed) these are the type of things that happen in the black community that white america wants a window into... this is what they buy

    what does bubba sparks talk about?? how about pall wall??, how about asher roth?? none of them have good content... even their white peers dont think so

    if you ask me, eminem would be MORE successful if he could apply those same ideas to black culture ... being white is limiting him
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Niggas fear what they don't understand, hate what they can't conquer.....
    I Guess it's just the theory of man
  • 5th Letter5th Letter Black Identified Extremist Posts: 37,068 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    Are we talking financial success or hiphop success. Cause Em's more successfull than Jay, but his money is NO WHERE near what Jay's stacked to. If we're talkin financially, I'd say no. He has the backing of white America, specifically, disenfranchised white teens. Who make up the largest demographic with the most buying power in the country I imagine. If he were black, he'd never have had that support. At least not anywhere near what he has being white. He's the champion for kids who are white, love hiphop & are between a lil & a lot fucked up & feel ostricized by their peers for what they listen to. If he were black, he'd get lost in the shuffle. He would be more successfull from a hiphop point of view, he'd have the support of the black community, and wouldn't be subjected to such comparisons & questions. While I agree with ya Uptown, especially with the street cred part, I don't think he'd be making as much money.

    wait til the debates are over.
    Fuck who's the baddest a persons status depends on salary
    That buck that bought that bottle could have struck the lotto
  • TheNEWICSUXTheNEWICSUX Posts: 71
    edited July 2010
    jamacia wrote: »
    wait til the debates are over.

    My bad... I agree with sionb55. I did edit my post, but only to correct typos, before some retarded clown starts tryin to tell me I'm uneducated because I misspelled financial or demographic.
  • hrap-120hrap-120 Posts: 9,449 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    jamacia wrote: »
    wait til the debates are over.
    Is it 3 people debating or just two??

    WTF is goin on??
  • 5th Letter5th Letter Black Identified Extremist Posts: 37,068 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    hrap-120 wrote: »
    Is it 3 people debating or just two??

    WTF is goin on??

    t's supposed to be Uptown vs SionB but NewICsux wanted to comment on something.
    Fuck who's the baddest a persons status depends on salary
    That buck that bought that bottle could have struck the lotto
  • SionSion Moderator, Legion of Trill, AHH Content Producer, AHH Editor Posts: 45,663 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    If Em were black & came out at the time he came out it Eminem wouldnt be less diff't from the casual black artist at this time period. U cannot deny that his skin color gives him privledges over regular black artists. Its not easy to say that he'd be "just as successful" in fact is there are NO artists in hiphop that has sold as much as eminem has or reached that height of fame. Also Vanilla Ice has merit, it took a vanilla ice track to be the first hiphop track to reach the top of the billboard, it took beastie boys to become the first hiphop act to go platinum (ahead of all the Rakims, big daddy kanes, juice crews, sugar hill gangs ppl who had HUGE records like rappers delight). In White America Em confesses labels wouldnt even sign him b/c he couldnt appeal to a black audience which at the time he came out was a major audience in giving an artist that co-sign so to speak, even tho his race had its cons the contrast is imminent. Are niggas today out there BLASTING "just lose it" or "slim shady" ? In those songs hes referencing britney spears n nsync & those are artists pitched to another demographic - im tryna convey that he has privledges that allow him to cross over effectively, if jay, Nas or 3K had said that or walked out of their bentley mooning people, dressing like a woman during the late 90s there'd have been a disconnect from their main audience.


    The contradiction in ur post is that ur claiming he could tailor his lyrics to fit blk audiences [ur Stan reference] & would still be as successful yet You still ignore that he wouldnt be much diff't from any other blk artist if he did nor do u acknowledge his race played a significant role in his success (as said by even Eminem). If he were to have the same catalog but change some things he'd be the same as a regular blk artist but we dont know if hed sell the way he has. Another flaw is that u say ppl wouldnt care about his image but "can he rap" yet compare him to master p who isnt Eminem or an artist comparable. In other words ur third paragraph is a contradiction & only re-instates wat i said about him not being any diff't than blk artists whove experienced that if that happened. Even if we take his skin color away we have to consider he'd still do acts he did to be a success including streaking/mooning which would not have connected w/ a blk audience.
    IC Moderator and AHH Editor

    http://community.allhiphop.com/categories/site-help

    ^^^ If you need anything go here

    jono wrote: »
    This is the folly of the internet. Its become a bastion of misinformation, rumors, conspiracies and propaganda. A place where a person with no face or name can make accusations at any time with no verification or credentials and brainwash a small segment of people.
    T. Sanford wrote: »
    Message to the trills of the IC: May Legion Of Trill be your enemies downfall
  • UPTOWNUPTOWN Posts: 13,009 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    sionb55 wrote: »
    If Em were black & came out at the time he came out it Eminem wouldnt be less diff't from the casual black artist at this time period. U cannot deny that his skin color gives him privledges over regular black artists. Its not easy to say that he'd be "just as successful" in fact is there are NO artists in hiphop that has sold as much as eminem has or reached that height of fame.

    as far as success ... its not all about sales. but since we are on that topic, EMINEM REACHED HIS HEIGHT OF SUCCESS AT THE PEAK OF CD SALES. any good single would make an artist go platinum .... was country grammar by nelly really an album that should have sold 9 million?? ... in fact the only artist during that time that had an album that deserved to sell that much was lauryn hill (the miseducation of lauryn hill). eminems overwhelming sales were merely just a perk that came with the time period that he gained popularity. tupac is truly the highest selling artist ... he sold all his albums because people actually wanted his music and message. think about the itunes software that had become so popular years ago ... was it really the software that was good?? or was it really just an accessory to the real star THE IPHONE? WHAT THIS BOILS DOWN TO IS THE FACT THAT EMINEMS SONGS ETC WERE ACTUALLY ENTERTAINING ... BUT AT THAT TIME, IT WAS LITERALLY NOTHING TO SELL CDS... even seasoned artists who already had their fan base set in stone were still going platinum in a month ... (see nas and jay z)
    Also Vanilla Ice has merit, it took a vanilla ice track to be the first hiphop track to reach the top of the billboard, it took beastie boys to become the first hiphop act to go platinum (ahead of all the Rakims, big daddy kanes, juice crews, sugar hill gangs ppl who had HUGE records like rappers delight). In White America Em confesses labels wouldnt even sign him b/c he couldnt appeal to a black audience which at the time he came out was a major audience in giving an artist that co-sign so to speak, even tho his race had its cons the contrast is imminent.
    well this a contridiction, if people are buying eminems albums and following his music because he's white, then thats what the majors are capitalizing on. why would they care if he appealed to black audiences?? it was already well known who bought the majority of hip hop related merchandise etc. lets not forget about kid rock ... eminem didnt need the "hood" to cosign him in this time period ... had it been 5 years earlier .. you may have had an arguement here
    Are niggas today out there BLASTING "just lose it" or "slim shady" ? In those songs hes referencing britney spears n nsync & those are artists pitched to another demographic - im tryna convey that he has privledges that allow him to cross over effectively, if jay, Nas or 3K had said that or walked out of their bentley mooning people, dressing like a woman during the late 90s there'd have been a disconnect from their main audience.
    thats because their audience was different than eminems. eminem appealed to those who were having pop culture forced upon them. eminem simply relates to an audience that has a vast amount of people in it ... that where his success lies

    had 50 cent got into a long drawn out "battle" between him and paris hilton for her racist remarks ... this same audience would have stood behind him too. are just lose it or the real slim shady still getting play to this day?? no they are not ...the strong points of eminems replay value are on his first two albums and the 8 miles soundtrack. but just as you say that ... are people still blasting hard knock life by jay Z?? how about got urself a gun by nas??

    The contradiction in ur post is that ur claiming he could tailor his lyrics to fit blk audiences [ur Stan reference] & would still be as successful yet You still ignore that he wouldnt be much diff't from any other blk artist if he did nor do u acknowledge his race played a significant role in his success (as said by even Eminem).

    its not the story you tell ... its how you tell it ....you dont see the talib kweli's and royce the 5'9 's making up these kinds of concepts or going deep into detail about about the issues they speak. they are focused just on lyrics and impressing people with what they say or how they make words ryhme. but the only thing is ... the only people that like that dont buy albums or go out to concerts etc (other rappers, internet heads etc). have you ever seen the qd3 documentary "THE MC" .... talib kweli even admits that he's not very creative when it comes to entertainment value, and that his strong points are lyrics and speaking on social issues. you wont hear eminem go deep into talking about the role that some whites took while trying to help the civil rights movement. but if he told a story about some kid who wrongfully got locked up (black eminem) or wrongfully got sent to a drug rehab (white eminem) the fine detail of his writing abilities is what takes you there and makes it entertaining ... eminem and talib kweli just arent the same type of artist ... even if their skin color was the same

    If he were to have the same catalog but change some things he'd be the same as a regular blk artist but we dont know if hed sell the way he has. Another flaw is that u say ppl wouldnt care about his image but "can he rap" yet compare him to master p who isnt Eminem or an artist comparable. In other words ur third paragraph is a contradiction & only re-instates wat i said about him not being any diff't than blk artists whove experienced that if that happened. Even if we take his skin color away we have to consider he'd still do acts he did to be a success including streaking/mooning which would not have connected w/ a blk audience.
    eminems creative concepts is what carries his career ...those concepts are whats entertaining those who support him. BLACK PEOPLE FOR THE MOST PART STILL TO THIS DAY DONT CONNECT WITH EMINEM. to us ... eminem is just some white boy who hangs with dr dre and 50 cent who can actually rhyme. just because eminems audience isnt black doesnt mean that they are supporting him just because he's white. if thats the case, then jay z only sells because he's black ... because in each case, the majority of people supporting these two are white people

    the fact is ... hip hop is an outlet for people to not give a fuck about color, background, or social status ... if your not radiating some kind of energy that resonates with your audience ... you will lose them quick ... with all the stresses in life that hip hop takes people away from temporarily, no one has time to supoort someone based on color. furthermore ... why are whites only choosing one artist?? with your logic there should be a white equivilent to nas jay 50 cent luda snoop dogg tupac biggie etc... which there isnt .... this is proof that its harder to be a white mc ... not easier to be successful because of it
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Niggas fear what they don't understand, hate what they can't conquer.....
    I Guess it's just the theory of man
  • SionSion Moderator, Legion of Trill, AHH Content Producer, AHH Editor Posts: 45,663 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    well dayum jamaica lol.... why did u end our debate we didnt even get to deliver our final responses *shrugs* dont see wat the rush is... hell me & connex still got fire for yall. but hey u da boss fam.

    if its cool id still like to post mine. & are we always suppose to keep our rebuttals w/in the 450 word limit or is it just for the first posts ?
    IC Moderator and AHH Editor

    http://community.allhiphop.com/categories/site-help

    ^^^ If you need anything go here

    jono wrote: »
    This is the folly of the internet. Its become a bastion of misinformation, rumors, conspiracies and propaganda. A place where a person with no face or name can make accusations at any time with no verification or credentials and brainwash a small segment of people.
    T. Sanford wrote: »
    Message to the trills of the IC: May Legion Of Trill be your enemies downfall
  • SionSion Moderator, Legion of Trill, AHH Content Producer, AHH Editor Posts: 45,663 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    i guess yall might as well vote...


    check out Wednesday's continuation of the Reason Debates... im sure Jamaica will have some pretty challenging topics & niggas gonna bring out the best of them.

    Anyways check it out.
    IC Moderator and AHH Editor

    http://community.allhiphop.com/categories/site-help

    ^^^ If you need anything go here

    jono wrote: »
    This is the folly of the internet. Its become a bastion of misinformation, rumors, conspiracies and propaganda. A place where a person with no face or name can make accusations at any time with no verification or credentials and brainwash a small segment of people.
    T. Sanford wrote: »
    Message to the trills of the IC: May Legion Of Trill be your enemies downfall
  • StewStew Rap Music Is My Religion HTTRPosts: 52,209 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    Ill vote UPTOWN for his believable argument on why Em could sell if he was black.

    The examples of the black "Stan" was pretty good.


    Great debate by both.
  • SionSion Moderator, Legion of Trill, AHH Content Producer, AHH Editor Posts: 45,663 Regulator
    edited July 2010
    Lets get a few more votes ppl.
    IC Moderator and AHH Editor

    http://community.allhiphop.com/categories/site-help

    ^^^ If you need anything go here

    jono wrote: »
    This is the folly of the internet. Its become a bastion of misinformation, rumors, conspiracies and propaganda. A place where a person with no face or name can make accusations at any time with no verification or credentials and brainwash a small segment of people.
    T. Sanford wrote: »
    Message to the trills of the IC: May Legion Of Trill be your enemies downfall
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