What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?
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RodrigueZz wrote: »That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.
See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.
Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.
there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"RodrigueZz wrote: »This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration
I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.
well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists. -
Am i the only that considers bribery to be a potential contributing factor to the British decision to create a purely Jewish state?
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RodrigueZz wrote: »Am i the only that considers bribery to be a potential contributing factor to the British decision to create a purely Jewish state?
I think that that's possible, but all evidence that I've read seems to indicate that the Jews basically "coerced" the British to give them complete control over how Israel was to be created. It's like jono said:The problem with Israel's genesis was that the Jews basically forced the British out and then took over. They did their fair share of terrorism before the Brits handed it over. Also the Brits opened the door to the Jews moving there in the first place. -
RodrigueZz wrote: »That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.
See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.
Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.
there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"RodrigueZz wrote: »This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration
I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.
well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.
I probably have those same issues with Israel too. Israel is definitely no saint. They have no right to increase their borders, threaten the welfare of their neighboring countries, discriminate against non-Jews, etc.
It is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well. -
uh, no one is willing to ask? i have said it several times: the British. they didn't seize it so much as fight a belligerent nation that owned it at the time and it's a LITTLE more complicated than giving it to the Israelis. but here's the thing: the Ottomans lost it to them, so you might need to ask if it was rightfully THEIR property in the first place.that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask!
also, again, not the US on this score
let's be fair: what countries claim to be democracies AND Muslim nations that get called fundamentalists/terrorists? we probably have to leave Palestine aside for obvious reasonswell I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.
welcome to the Cold War. although i don't think they're seen as "freedom fighters" so much as "righteously beleaguered democrat heroes." no one really worries about the creation of Israel in the Western worldIt is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?
I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got ? over big time, greed is a ? when it comes to those of European descent.
I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were ? over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know
My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves
But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.
Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.
Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know
My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves
Can you drop some info on that? I would love to read up on that -
uh, no one is willing to ask? i have said it several times: the British. they didn't seize it so much as fight a belligerent nation that owned it at the time and it's a LITTLE more complicated than giving it to the Israelis. but here's the thing: the Ottomans lost it to them, so you might need to ask if it was rightfully THEIR property in the first place.that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask!
also, again, not the US on this score
let's be fair: what countries claim to be democracies AND Muslim nations that get called fundamentalists/terrorists? we probably have to leave Palestine aside for obvious reasonswell I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.
welcome to the Cold War. although i don't think they're seen as "freedom fighters" so much as "righteously beleaguered democrat heroes." no one really worries about the creation of Israel in the Western worldIt is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well.
i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.
Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people. -
Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?
I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got ? over big time, greed is a ? when it comes to those of European descent.
I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were ? over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know
My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves
But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.
Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.
Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know
My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves
Can you drop some info on that? I would love to read up on that
I'm sure there are other people here that could give you better sources and information, but I tried, unfortunately with little success, to look for some reliable sources on what you're looking for, and I came up with a couple.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#History_of_Palestine_under_the_British_Mandate - I know it's a wikipedia article, but it still gives you a good 101 on the history of Israel before Israel became Israel. Before Israel became Israel, that same territory was called Palestine, but it wasn't an Arab state. It was technically governed by the British, but was really governed by the Jewish and Arab Palestinians who occupied the land. Though I'm pretty sure that, in the beginning, the Arab Palestinians outnumbered the Jewish Palestinians.
palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14037 - That wikipedia article also gives you links to other sources that you can read up on. This is one of them. The source is biased, but it still gives you a somewhat good timeline of the socio-political development of what is now Israel. The timeline starts from the Stone Age to the present, so it's pretty comprehensive. It was interesting to me because I had always wanted to know what Israel/Palestine was like before the British took control of it from the Ottomans. -
my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got ? that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.
frankly, this is not a great example, because:Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.
a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;
b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism -
my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got ? that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.
frankly, this is not a great example, because:Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.
a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;
b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism
you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?
as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.
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my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got ? that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.
frankly, this is not a great example, because:Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.
a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;
b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism
you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?
as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.
Great post bro, the birth of Israel led to close to a million Palestinians being forced from their homes, farms, and businesses, all with British support.....if Pakistan supports "terrorism", than America fully supports terrorism as well by giving weapons and aid to the terrorist and genocidal state known as Israel. How much more land and water must Israel steal and how many more illegal settlements have to be built before Americans understand why Pakistan and many other nations in the middle east hate America so much? And shame on Obama and Romney for being so willing to sell their soul to the devil in order to gain Jewish votes and more importantly, mega dollars to fund their campaigns. I'm no fan of Al-Qaeda or terrorist tactics, but when America is so blatant in its disregard for Palestinians and the theft of their land and the destruction of their homes everyday to make way for Jewish settlements, I can very easily see why someone would resort to desperate tactics to show America, Israel, and the west that stealing and destruction can be tolerated for only so much. -
? Israel. I say that not because I have any belief that they have no rights to the land or that I believe they are all wrong. They may have credible and truthful claims. I say ? them because they are the biggest hypocrites ever to exist. It's amazing how they can constantly complain about how they've been mistreated historically, but simultaneously do a lot of the stuff the complain about to other people without batting an eye.
I also dislike how they seem to have a chokehold on the US. When we're discussing electing a new president, his stance on foreign policy should be a major concern. His stance on relations with Israel shouldn't. With all the countries out there that we have dealings with both good and bad, why should Israel be so important to the general public? -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »? Israel. I say that not because I have any belief that they have no rights to the land or that I believe they are all wrong. They may have credible and truthful claims. I say ? them because they are the biggest hypocrites ever to exist. It's amazing how they can constantly complain about how they've been mistreated historically, but simultaneously do a lot of the stuff the complain about to other people without batting an eye.
I also dislike how they seem to have a chokehold on the US. When we're discussing electing a new president, his stance on foreign policy should be a major concern. His stance on relations with Israel shouldn't. With all the countries out there that we have dealings with both good and bad, why should Israel be so important to the general public?
It's all about the money trail man. Israel does very little to help America out image wise, it's all about Jewish votes and more importantly, their large financial donor base. Until Muslims and Arabs contribute the same amount of dollars to American campaigns and interests the way Jews do, Israel will continue its choke hold on American politics, and also continue to be the main reason America is so hated across the Muslim and Arab world. Israel also is very good at convincing the evangelical Christians of America that Israel is indeed the chosen nation of the world and that it needs America's support to continue ? 's plan for the world, whatever plan that is. Basically, Israel has American politicians by the ? and the whole world knows it. America has been sold out a long time ago. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »
my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got ? that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.
frankly, this is not a great example, because:Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.
a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;
b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism
you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?
as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.
Great post bro, the birth of Israel led to close to a million Palestinians being forced from their homes, farms, and businesses, all with British support.....if Pakistan supports "terrorism", than America fully supports terrorism as well by giving weapons and aid to the terrorist and genocidal state known as Israel. How much more land and water must Israel steal and how many more illegal settlements have to be built before Americans understand why Pakistan and many other nations in the middle east hate America so much? And shame on Obama and Romney for being so willing to sell their soul to the devil in order to gain Jewish votes and more importantly, mega dollars to fund their campaigns. I'm no fan of Al-Qaeda or terrorist tactics, but when America is so blatant in its disregard for Palestinians and the theft of their land and the destruction of their homes everyday to make way for Jewish settlements, I can very easily see why someone would resort to desperate tactics to show America, Israel, and the west that stealing and destruction can be tolerated for only so much.
thank you. although i'd like to make a clear distinction. i think the hate is directed more towards the policies of governments rather than its peoples. -
I need to look into it more. I always thought Israel was created after world war 2 as a place to put the jews. I've never viewed Israel as having a right to exist. And even if Israel does have legitimate reasons for existing, they're not innocent victims.
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Some ? are ? stupid African occupied the land way before some pale mf's came in
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i think you're missing MY point: no, it was not the US. the US didn't control the territory to allow it to be divided up - you may remember in the aftermath of WWII that it was the British and French arguing with us regarding the whole colonial territories issues - and you're overstating the role of the US in early Israel because you really want to squeeze in your CURRENT beef with the US.you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US?
good thing i'm talking about current... oh wait, i'm not talking about current events at all. are we discussing the creation of Israel or current events?Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel? -
so i guess we're sidestepping the issue of whether or not we can fairly call Pakistan a democracy in favor of just bashing the US? because i remain unsure what the grounds are for praising the long-standing tradition of democracy in Pakistan; i think i recall some military-run government there recently...as far as pakistan...
also, when Pakistan keeps a back channel open to their pet terrorists, they do kind of lose the ability to claim they can't be identified as terrorist-supporting. they promoted terrorism in Kashmir for territorial reasons that have nothing to do with the US ? Pakistan over. they promoted the growth of groups like the Taliban which, if anything, was Pakistan's ISI ? US over. it's fine if they want to argue they have to do these things because blah blah blah... but let's not pretend they're the continual victim in the situation.
also... pretty sure we haven't invaded Pakistan
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so i guess we're sidestepping the issue of whether or not we can fairly call Pakistan a democracy in favor of just bashing the US? because i remain unsure what the grounds are for praising the long-standing tradition of democracy in Pakistan; i think i recall some military-run government there recently...as far as pakistan...
also, when Pakistan keeps a back channel open to their pet terrorists, they do kind of lose the ability to claim they can't be identified as terrorist-supporting. they promoted terrorism in Kashmir for territorial reasons that have nothing to do with the US ? Pakistan over. they promoted the growth of groups like the Taliban which, if anything, was Pakistan's ISI ? US over. it's fine if they want to argue they have to do these things because blah blah blah... but let's not pretend they're the continual victim in the situation.
also... pretty sure we haven't invaded Pakistan
i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on. everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me. You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists." The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? Funny how you completely ignored the fact that it wasnt them who invaded us. seriously what do you do they propose sit down and get killed? if thats your solution let me swing by your house and punch you in the face and see if you do nothing. As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that/ -
i think you're missing MY point: no, it was not the US. the US didn't control the territory to allow it to be divided up - you may remember in the aftermath of WWII that it was the British and French arguing with us regarding the whole colonial territories issues - and you're overstating the role of the US in early Israel because you really want to squeeze in your CURRENT beef with the US.you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US?
good thing i'm talking about current... oh wait, i'm not talking about current events at all. are we discussing the creation of Israel or current events?Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?
look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise. Current events have alot to do with the creation of israel because they testify to the mentality of the US that goes back for decades. You dont just one day wake up and become such a staunch ally of israel.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html
"The United States endorsed the majority report and called on the General Assembly to approve partition. Some dispute exists among scholars as to how vigorously the Truman Administration lobbied for the resolution. Nevertheless, ample evidence exists to indicate that U.S. influence played a critical role in securing the adoption of the partition resolution." -
i love when people think that not being an American gets them automatic knowledge points. and here i was not realizing that being born outside the continental US means you get issued a master's degree in history when you exit the ? .i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on.
well, i recall the constitution being suspended, i recall Zia's military takeover, i recall Musharraf being involved in some kind of coup ... look, Pakistan may meet the current technical standard of a democracy. wonderful. let's see what i actually said: "Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable." that seems accurate.everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me.
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i love when people think that not being an American gets them automatic knowledge points. and here i was not realizing that being born outside the continental US means you get issued a master's degree in history when you exit the ? .i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on.
well, i recall the constitution being suspended, i recall Zia's military takeover, i recall Musharraf being involved in some kind of coup ... look, Pakistan may meet the current technical standard of a democracy. wonderful. let's see what i actually said: "Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable." that seems accurate.everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me.
nice try although i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S. I may not have a master's in history but I will have a master's in international affairs soon.
ok so there have a been a few military coups. so I guess that means you're only a democracy as long as you can circumvent your own laws ( such as secret military tribunals, targeted assassinations, torture, etc). All of that doesnt matter because the U.S. is still a "democracy" even though its actually a republic -
the difference here is a) you're claiming that it's ignorant to label them a terrorist country (which i actually didn't do), so the fact of them having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are. sorry.You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists."
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please don't give me the "learn something about history" comment and then drop this erroneous talking point. what we call the Taliban developed after that conflict; we didn't train the Taliban; the arming comes from multiple countries (including the US); and Pakistan's tight controls over the mujaheddin in that conflict - here's the ISI again - mean it's more like we gave money and supplies to the ISI to distribute and they favored certain people (say, Hekmatyar versus Massoud) and built relationships.The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? ... As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that
...and i'm guessing the latter is code for "i don't want to acknowledge how Pakistan addresses the issue, so i'll just avoid it." -
my point actually is more along the lines of "because people have beef with the way the US currently deals with Israel, they feel compelled to attribute EVERYTHING related to Israel to the US." whereas i think we see you're glossing over who's most responsible (say, the UK or the Ottomans) because you want to shoehorn the US in there.look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise.
it's fine if you want to talk about current events and then go back some decades, but i didn't think this thread had us talking about current events.
This discussion has been closed.