Christians are arrogant as ? .
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*Random related post*
Not surprised 100prime booked it after reaching 300 posts. -
What do you consider a 'different version' of quantum mechanics? Other than the standard model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model) I know of no versions.
The standard model is extremely good at explaining the electroweak and strong forces which cover the realm of quantum fluctuations. While I agree that atheists should not claim knowledge that does not exist it is equally flawed to claim knowledge false that does exists.
However.....The Standard Model falls short of being a complete theory of fundamental interactions because it does not incorporate the full theory of gravitation as described by general relativity, or predict the accelerating expansion of the universe (as possibly described by dark energy).
The theory does not contain any viable dark matter particle that possesses all of the required properties deduced from observational cosmology. It also does not correctly account for neutrino oscillations (and their non-zero masses).
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@bambu
That is where quantum gravity steps in. It is generally called the theory of everything because as stated earlier, by me, a theory of everything is required to reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity. Without it, the two are not unified, which explains the short comings of the standard model of quantum mechanics as well as those of general relativity.
Granted, it's still being worked out but that is only a testament to man's limitation. Man is not omniscient so mankind will never know everything there is to know of everything, but this is where we are, at this time and there will always be questions about what is next or what comes before our current understanding. -
Roots Oceanic wrote: »Not only does Job 1 show that ? and heaven exist in time but that ? is not omniscient:
Job 1:7
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Here, we have ? asking Satan a question, inferring that Satan knew something ? did not: his whereabouts!
Your speaking words without knowledge bro. Even humans ask questions to things that they already know the answer to. Asking questions doesn't equate to ignorance.
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Roots Oceanic wrote: »I can ask you a question that does not mean i don't know you know the answer. IT'S THE SAME THING ? DID WHEN he asked kane where his brother was. The satan in this story is not the devil. If you want bible answers please put your questions in one post so i can answer more efficiently. remember the bible is written from more than one viewpoint. the only way a human mind especially thounds of years ago could frame the story of job was by using terms such as "DAY" BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM THAT VERY SAME BOOK OF JOB THAT TIME IS NO ISSUE FOR ? . THE book of job is unlike all the other books in the bible it is not meant to be taken literally in other words it is not an account of real things that supposedly happened it's like one long proverb that is there to drive home a point.
You missed the point. The point is, according to the Bible, Job specifically, ? , the angels, and satan, whoever you want satan to be, were thinking, moving, and talking in heaven (the third heaven). Thinking, moving and talking are all mental and/or physical events done only in time.
Not true. ? exists outside of time. The 3rd heaven isn't in this physical universe. It's located outside of time in eternity. The uncaused caused, ? ALMIGHTY, created time, space, and matter out of nothing. Therefore, He thought, moved, and talked outside of time before He created time. Amen.
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Roots Oceanic wrote: »Bottom line is THIS:
1. I'm a Buddhist
2. You are a Christian
3. Your Christian Bible depicts a ? existing in time while you take the unorthodox approach and claim that ? is outside time to avoid other problems that arise out of accepting all other biblical descriptions of ? .
4. I believe in an endless succession of causes and effects without any creator ? intervening. This belief is separable from my Buddhist way of life.
5. Science has not disproven any idea of an endless succession of causes and effects. Logically speaking, this idea works.
6. Logically speaking, your ? theory is incoherent and in addition, not backed by mathematics or inferred or observable proof.
? moves freely in time and outside of time. He is the Creator. It's like this:
Imagine a piece of paper as being the created universe and everything outside of the paper being eternity. If I take a pen I can freely write on the paper whenever I please, while at the same time moving about freely in eternity. I have no limits to how, when, and why I would choose to write on the piece of paper. It is totally up to my discretion. And the paper has no effect on anything I do in the realm that I am operating in, which is eternity. Also, the piece of paper is always in my view, there is no area unaccounted for on the piece of paper that I don't have total dominion and presence in.
Likewise ? freely moves and acts whenever He pleases. ? is omnipresent. Yes, He dwells in heaven which is in eternity, but He also has total control over creation which He can manipulate any way He sees fit. Creation is totally under His control and sovereignty. He knows everything from beginning to end and all points in between. Amen.
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Not true. ? exists outside of time. The 3rd heaven isn't in this physical universe. It's located outside of time in eternity. The uncaused caused, ? ALMIGHTY, created time, space, and matter out of nothing. Therefore, He thought, moved, and talked outside of time before He created time. Amen.
Time is defined as:
The indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.
Any event, whether mental or physical, that takes place can only happen in time. In the case of timelessness or indifferentiated time, nothing can take place at all. This means no talking, no moving, no thinking.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Imagine a piece of paper as being the created universe and everything outside of the paper being eternity. If I take a pen I can freely write on the paper whenever I please, while at the same time moving about freely in eternity. I have no limits to how, when, and why I would choose to write on the piece of paper. It is totally up to my discretion. And the paper has no effect on anything I do in the realm that I am operating in, which is eternity. Also, the piece of paper is always in my view, there is no area unaccounted for on the piece of paper that I don't have total dominion and presence in.
Likewise ? freely moves and acts whenever He pleases.
Whatever you write or draw on the paper is 2 dimensional, while you are in 3D. That doesn't change anything; you're still moving about in time. You exist in 3D and the creation is being done in 3D because it takes time for you to write on the paper. Even if ? exists in a higher dimension, if he is moving in any way, he is in time. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Roots Oceanic wrote: »Not only does Job 1 show that ? and heaven exist in time but that ? is not omniscient:
Job 1:7
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Here, we have ? asking Satan a question, inferring that Satan knew something ? did not: his whereabouts!
Your speaking words without knowledge bro. Even humans ask questions to things that they already know the answer to. Asking questions doesn't equate to ignorance.
In this instance, there was no other reason for ? to pose the question except to gain information he didn't have. There was no point besides that. If he is omniscient, he knows everything there is to know so the possibility that he asked to test Satan is reasoned out.
There are four reasons to ask a question:
1. To gain information
2. To "test" someone's heart or intention; Analytical
3. To teach, which falls under #2 because the question itself is a test. The questioner is testing to know the level of understanding of the person questioned.
4. Therapeutical
#1, 2, and 3 imply that the question was posed to gain information not previously had. #1 is obvious but #2 and #3 not as much. For a human being who is not omniscient, testing someone with a question would mean that the questioner does not know the intentions of the person being questioned. That is what the test, or the question, is for in the first place. The questioner knows the answer to his own question, but does not know how the person being questioned will answer; whether truthfully or not. #3 is to teach, but that also falls under the category for #2 because the questioner, like I said, knows the answer to the question being posed but may not know how the person being questioned will answer, so in order to continue the lesson, the teacher has to know the level of understanding of the person being questioned, implying that the teacher does not really know until questioning. This is usually called quizzing or testing. #4 is for therapeutic or learning purposes. Sometimes the best thing for a person is to admit or come to terms with reality, and sometimes the best way to get that done is by way of questioning. This ties in with #3 also because a teacher may ask a question in hopes that the person being questioned will learn or benefit in any other way from the answer given.
For an omnicient being, there is no need to question in the ways of #1, 2, and 3
In Job 1, though, Satan is clearly being questioned only for information. Satan did not noticeably benefit from the question, so #4 is ruled out. The only person who benefited was ? by gaining information he did not have prior to questioning Satan. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Roots Oceanic wrote: »I can ask you a question that does not mean i don't know you know the answer. IT'S THE SAME THING ? DID WHEN he asked kane where his brother was. The satan in this story is not the devil. If you want bible answers please put your questions in one post so i can answer more efficiently. remember the bible is written from more than one viewpoint. the only way a human mind especially thounds of years ago could frame the story of job was by using terms such as "DAY" BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM THAT VERY SAME BOOK OF JOB THAT TIME IS NO ISSUE FOR ? . THE book of job is unlike all the other books in the bible it is not meant to be taken literally in other words it is not an account of real things that supposedly happened it's like one long proverb that is there to drive home a point.
You missed the point. The point is, according to the Bible, Job specifically, ? , the angels, and satan, whoever you want satan to be, were thinking, moving, and talking in heaven (the third heaven). Thinking, moving and talking are all mental and/or physical events done only in time.
Not true. ? exists outside of time. The 3rd heaven isn't in this physical universe. It's located outside of time in eternity. The uncaused caused, ? ALMIGHTY, created time, space, and matter out of nothing. Therefore, He thought, moved, and talked outside of time before He created time. Amen.
What you have to understand about people like roots organic is that you can give them an answer but if it's not one that falls within their logic then it will be rejected. IT DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER TO HIM if the answer is religious based or science based it will still be rejected. He is biased to begin with because he is a buddist so keep that in mind. ALSO he like to make leaps in logic that connects things that don't have nor should they be connected.
You will hear him say things like" this means that so therefore" he'll WRITE these things without first getting a proper understanding what the "this" or the "that" means So he does not know how to put them together. -
You can ask a question simply because you want the person to tell you the answer, you may know the answer but you want them to say it because the act of them telling you the answer may be good for them.
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What do you consider a 'different version' of quantum mechanics? Other than the standard model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model) I know of no versions.
The standard model is extremely good at explaining the electroweak and strong forces which cover the realm of quantum fluctuations. While I agree that atheists should not claim knowledge that does not exist it is equally flawed to claim knowledge false that does exists.
We have to deal with reality in SCIENCE, and the theories that have the most evidence should be those embraced those with shady evidence or those that have been disproved like the eternal universe theory should be look at as shady and little more than fantasy, or at lest not given as much fame as they are getting. Theories like m-theory and it's 11 dimensions that we have no proof of and universes existing before this one are lacking and real evidence. Many of the interpretations of quantum mechanics are really just numbers on paper things that could be real but we have no proof are AND IN THAT RESPECT IT'S SIMILAR TO ? . theist will tell you we cannot prove ? we cannot write him down of a piece of paper. Atheist will write down there theories on paper but cannot prove it , still they insist that what they have written should be taken as reality and if you don't they consider you less than they are.
Atheist say we know theist say we believe we know. -
You can ask a question simply because you want the person to tell you the answer, you may know the answer but you want them to say it because the act of them telling you the answer may be good for them.
Oh yeah I forgot. Thanks.
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Edited posts
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Roots Oceanic wrote: »You can ask a question simply because you want the person to tell you the answer, you may know the answer but you want them to say it because the act of them telling you the answer may be good for them.
Oh yeah I forgot. Thanks.
So actually there's other ways in which to ask a question.
3. The other is to teach, but that falls under the category for #2 because the questioner, like I said, knows the answer to the question being posed but may not know how the person being questioned will answer, so in order to continue the lesson, the teacher has to know the level of understanding of the person being questioned, implying that the teacher does not really know until questioning. This is usually called quizzing or testing.
4. The last is for therapeutic or learning purposes. Sometimes the best thing for a person is to admit or come to terms with reality, and sometimes the best way to get that done is by way of questioning. This ties in with #3 also because a teacher may ask a question in hopes that the person being questioned will learn from the answer given.
In Job 1, though, Satan is clearly being questioned only for information. Satan did not noticeably benefit from the question. The only person who benefited was ? by gaining information he did not have prior to questioning Satan.
Ignorance never knows it is ignorant and your whole premise is ignorant because the book of job is not to be taken as something that really happened unlike much of the rest of the bible. The reality of the person of job is an unknown to some in the faith, there are even some jews who don't think he was real.
Job unlike peter, paul, isaiah and much of the other people in the bible is never claimed by all christians to be a real person so you cannot use job to prove anything because the whole book is a proverb to me and many others. although many do see it as a bibilcal history for me to explain the difference between these to viewpoints and why you are wrong i would have to write an essay. -
If Job is a parable, how do we not know the entire Bible is one big parable loosely based on real places and people but for the most part fantasy fiction? Parable or not, whether Job was a real person or not, in Job, the 3rd heaven is depicted to be existing in time.
In all honesty though @zombie, any debate we have will not likely go anywhere only because you are not willing to listen. For example, you still believe that the bvg theorem says that the universe had a beginning, when that is not necessarily what it says. -
I find it rather in-coincidental that I can change only two words and you have the exact same thing a non-theist would say about a theist.
What you have to understand about people like Zombie is that you can give them an answer but if it's not one that falls within their logic then it will be rejected. IT DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER TO HIM if the answer is religious based or science based it will still be rejected. He is biased to begin with because he is a christian so keep that in mind. ALSO he like to make leaps in logic that connects things that don't have nor should they be connected.
You will hear him say things like" this means that so therefore" he'll WRITE these things without first getting a proper understanding what the "this" or the "that" means So he does not know how to put them together.
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Inflationary big bang theory only posits that time can not extend into the past for an infinite period. As Dr Vilenkin has mentioned the surface area of a sphere is finite but has no beginning. While given our perception of time a definite beginning seems probable it is not absolute.
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Roots Oceanic wrote: »I can ask you a question that does not mean i don't know you know the answer. IT'S THE SAME THING ? DID WHEN he asked kane where his brother was. The satan in this story is not the devil. If you want bible answers please put your questions in one post so i can answer more efficiently. remember the bible is written from more than one viewpoint. the only way a human mind especially thounds of years ago could frame the story of job was by using terms such as "DAY" BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM THAT VERY SAME BOOK OF JOB THAT TIME IS NO ISSUE FOR ? . THE book of job is unlike all the other books in the bible it is not meant to be taken literally in other words it is not an account of real things that supposedly happened it's like one long proverb that is there to drive home a point.
You missed the point. The point is, according to the Bible, Job specifically, ? , the angels, and satan, whoever you want satan to be, were thinking, moving, and talking in heaven (the third heaven). Thinking, moving and talking are all mental and/or physical events done only in time.
Not true. ? exists outside of time. The 3rd heaven isn't in this physical universe. It's located outside of time in eternity. The uncaused caused, ? ALMIGHTY, created time, space, and matter out of nothing. Therefore, He thought, moved, and talked outside of time before He created time. Amen.
What you have to understand about people like roots organic is that you can give them an answer but if it's not one that falls within their logic then it will be rejected. IT DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER TO HIM if the answer is religious based or science based it will still be rejected. He is biased to begin with because he is a buddist so keep that in mind. ALSO he like to make leaps in logic that connects things that don't have nor should they be connected.
You will hear him say things like" this means that so therefore" he'll WRITE these things without first getting a proper understanding what the "this" or the "that" means So he does not know how to put them together.
Your right my friend. Roots Oceanic is a very interesting individual. As believers in Christ we must not argue but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instructing those who oppose the truth. Thus, perhaps ? will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth.- (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
I pray that the seeds that are being planted and/or watered in Roots Oceanic's soul will one day sprout to everlasting life as He acknowledges his need for the one and only Savior of humanity, the LORD Jesus Christ. Amen.
Keep preaching my brother. Praise ? .
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I think what the OP is describing is people in general
http://youtu.be/VakToBAXVD8