You gotta respect Hyundai... they going riight for the 300C...
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I like the fact that hyundai is trying to lean towards luxury- they some sleek and nice joints in thier lineup.. but everytime I see a Genesis I always thing to my self "its a Hyundai under the hood tho"..
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Hyundai shed that cheap label a long time ago. Fact is(and I've heard people say this out their mouth) certain people won't cop a genesis no matter how nice it is because they can't stunt in a hyundai. I have a sonata and a maxima and my sonata holds up just as well if not better than the max
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t_m_a_c_f_a_n73088 wrote: »Hyundai shed that cheap label a long time ago. Fact is(and I've heard people say this out their mouth) certain people won't cop a genesis no matter how nice it is because they can't stunt in a hyundai. I have a sonata and a maxima and my sonata holds up just as well if not better than the max
Nah bruh. Hyundai is still known for ? awful looking or boring, mundane looking shitbox cars. Only recently have they made an attempt to change that perception.
Prior to 2010, Hyundai cars looked like ? , plain, or just ? odd. The Tiburon looked like a pile of cow ? until the 2nd Gen redesign and then was hampered with an underpowered V6 in it's best iteration.
The Accent always looked like the designer was on LSD when he designed it up to the 2010 redesign.
The Sonata was butt ugly and struggled to find an identity until the 2010 redesign (oddly, the best looking was also the most boring looking, the 88-93 Sonata).
The Elantra was always a "meh" looking car. Again, the 2010 redesigned made it a good looking ride.
It's gonna take time before they can overcome the stigma attached to their name. For 25 years ('85-2010), the name "Hyundai" stood for "cheap ? car you only buy 'cause you have to". -
konceptjones wrote: »t_m_a_c_f_a_n73088 wrote: »Hyundai shed that cheap label a long time ago. Fact is(and I've heard people say this out their mouth) certain people won't cop a genesis no matter how nice it is because they can't stunt in a hyundai. I have a sonata and a maxima and my sonata holds up just as well if not better than the max
Nah bruh. Hyundai is still known for ? awful looking or boring, mundane looking shitbox cars. Only recently have they made an attempt to change that perception.
Prior to 2010, Hyundai cars looked like ? , plain, or just ? odd. The Tiburon looked like a pile of cow ? until the 2nd Gen redesign and then was hampered with an underpowered V6 in it's best iteration.
The Accent always looked like the designer was on LSD when he designed it up to the 2010 redesign.
The Sonata was butt ugly and struggled to find an identity until the 2010 redesign (oddly, the best looking was also the most boring looking, the 88-93 Sonata).
The Elantra was always a "meh" looking car. Again, the 2010 redesigned made it a good looking ride.
It's gonna take time before they can overcome the stigma attached to their name. For 25 years ('85-2010), the name "Hyundai" stood for "cheap ? car you only buy 'cause you have to".
Exactly!! This recent redesign is a good step though. -
cats in here agreeing that Hyundai still got brand issues
but don't think they need to set up a separate "luxury" division?
cats need to pay attention to branding issues like this..............cause this is typical of what businesses do to ? up a good product
this is especially a big issue in the car industry, which is why it seems like many cars today are starting to look more and more like their competitors
and in the end it leaves consumers with less options to choose from IMO
common cause of car companies folding/having problems is due to poor branding and/or support from their manufacturing base
some examples: GM, Ford, Dodge (hell all american car companies for that matter haha), Mazda (SMH), and Jaguar -
Ford? Last I checked that were doing pretty good.
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konceptjones wrote: »t_m_a_c_f_a_n73088 wrote: »Hyundai shed that cheap label a long time ago. Fact is(and I've heard people say this out their mouth) certain people won't cop a genesis no matter how nice it is because they can't stunt in a hyundai. I have a sonata and a maxima and my sonata holds up just as well if not better than the max
Nah bruh. Hyundai is still known for ? awful looking or boring, mundane looking shitbox cars. Only recently have they made an attempt to change that perception.
Prior to 2010, Hyundai cars looked like ? , plain, or just ? odd. The Tiburon looked like a pile of cow ? until the 2nd Gen redesign and then was hampered with an underpowered V6 in it's best iteration.
The Accent always looked like the designer was on LSD when he designed it up to the 2010 redesign.
The Sonata was butt ugly and struggled to find an identity until the 2010 redesign (oddly, the best looking was also the most boring looking, the 88-93 Sonata).
The Elantra was always a "meh" looking car. Again, the 2010 redesigned made it a good looking ride.
It's gonna take time before they can overcome the stigma attached to their name. For 25 years ('85-2010), the name "Hyundai" stood for "cheap ? car you only buy 'cause you have to".
as far as looks go yea I definitely agree. I thought you were talking reliability wise... -
blakfyahking wrote: »cats in here agreeing that Hyundai still got brand issues
but don't think they need to set up a separate "luxury" division?
cats need to pay attention to branding issues like this..............cause this is typical of what businesses do to ? up a good product
this is especially a big issue in the car industry, which is why it seems like many cars today are starting to look more and more like their competitors
and in the end it leaves consumers with less options to choose from IMO
common cause of car companies folding/having problems is due to poor branding and/or support from their manufacturing base
some examples: GM, Ford, Dodge (hell all american car companies for that matter haha), Mazda (SMH), and Jaguar
Creating a new luxury division will only add cost to the cars. Something has to pay for the cost of the new infrastructure and overhead. This removes any value proposition Hyundai currently has. -
wilberdmillz wrote: »Ford? Last I checked that were doing pretty good.
yes Ford............maybe currently they are doing fine
but people forget a couple years ago how Ford's Automotive Group sold off a lot of its brands
Ford used to own Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo, Range Rover, and used to push out its own luxury brand Mercury
but because of branding issues like Hyundai is close to doing with their attempt to step into the luxury market, Ford needed to trim down and preserve their brand (and save money by preserving other brands they were diluting)
Brands are important, especially in the car industry...........just look at what Ford did to Mazda when Ford only had a 33% stake
Mazda had the potential to become niche sports and luxury vehicles today............now they make just family cars SMHblakfyahking wrote: »cats in here agreeing that Hyundai still got brand issues
but don't think they need to set up a separate "luxury" division?
cats need to pay attention to branding issues like this..............cause this is typical of what businesses do to ? up a good product
this is especially a big issue in the car industry, which is why it seems like many cars today are starting to look more and more like their competitors
and in the end it leaves consumers with less options to choose from IMO
common cause of car companies folding/having problems is due to poor branding and/or support from their manufacturing base
some examples: GM, Ford, Dodge (hell all american car companies for that matter haha), Mazda (SMH), and Jaguar
Creating a new luxury division will only add cost to the cars. Something has to pay for the cost of the new infrastructure and overhead. This removes any value proposition Hyundai currently has.
not really cause when you start competing in luxury markets, people pay that extra cost (premium) for the brand
somebody already said that the main reason most people ain't ready to jump on Hyundai's luxury cars just yet because the brand doesn't bring a stunt factor to it yet
and if the Equus is already competing in above a $50K+ range, their value proposition is still preserved if you consider reliability is the one factor that has been getting customers to pay attention to Hyundai more
think about it, if a BMW and a Hyundai are the same price, how is Hyundai's value proposition hurt if it's more reliable (thus cheaper to own)?
artificially keeping ya cars lower priced only dilutes the brand and leaves you less wiggle room to push the envelope in the future.............you looking at least another 20 or so years before mofos would even be willing to consider a Hyundai next to a BMW/Benz in having "stunting power" haha -
@blakfyahking Ford did the right thing getting rid of the dead weight and thats why they're in such a good position. Ford's Luxury division is and always has been Lincoln and they have some nice cars out. I also find it crazy how fords new car front ends look very Aston like.
That's GM's problem, they have to many brands and ? looks the same. Yukon,Tahoe,Excalade ALL look the same IMO they're hurting themselves by doing this. GM did right by ending Hummer and Pontiac as well. -
wilberdmillz wrote: »@blakfyahking Ford did the right thing getting rid of the dead weight and thats why they're in such a good position. Ford's Luxury division is and always has been Lincoln and they have some nice cars out. I also find it crazy how fords new car front ends look very Aston like.
That's GM's problem, they have to many brands and ? looks the same. Yukon,Tahoe,Excalade ALL look the same IMO they're hurting themselves by doing this. GM did right by ending Hummer and Pontiac as well.
the problem wasn't really that Ford got rid of dead weight
they just poorly mismanaged the brands of several vehicles
for example: just like GM has too many similar vehicles...................Ford was doing something even worse by sharing platforms between vehicles with starkly different brands
wtf was they thinking trying to share a platform of the Ford Mondeo with the X-type and thinking that ? wouldn't degrade Jaguar's brand at all?
GM has been getting away with brands that look similar because each truck brand serves a different market.............GM's real issue is its brands overseas, and their inability to manage the brands of its cars in the same way it does trucks
picking between an Escalade and Tahoe makes way more sense than picking between a Pontiac and an Oldsmobile when you consider the manufacturing support across similar vehicles
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blakfyahking wrote: »wilberdmillz wrote: »@blakfyahking Ford did the right thing getting rid of the dead weight and thats why they're in such a good position. Ford's Luxury division is and always has been Lincoln and they have some nice cars out. I also find it crazy how fords new car front ends look very Aston like.
That's GM's problem, they have to many brands and ? looks the same. Yukon,Tahoe,Excalade ALL look the same IMO they're hurting themselves by doing this. GM did right by ending Hummer and Pontiac as well.
the problem wasn't really that Ford got rid of dead weight
they just poorly mismanaged the brands of several vehicles
for example: just like GM has too many similar vehicles...................Ford was doing something even worse by sharing platforms between vehicles with starkly different brands
wtf was they thinking trying to share a platform of the Ford Mondeo with the X-type and thinking that ? wouldn't degrade Jaguar's brand at all?
GM has been getting away with brands that look similar because each truck brand serves a different market.............GM's real issue is its brands overseas, and their inability to manage the brands of its cars in the same way it does trucks
picking between an Escalade and Tahoe makes way more sense than picking between a Pontiac and an Oldsmobile when you consider the manufacturing support across similar vehicles
Agreed -
blakfyahking wrote: »cats in here agreeing that Hyundai still got brand issues
but don't think they need to set up a separate "luxury" division?
cats need to pay attention to branding issues like this..............cause this is typical of what businesses do to ? up a good product
this is especially a big issue in the car industry, which is why it seems like many cars today are starting to look more and more like their competitors
and in the end it leaves consumers with less options to choose from IMO
common cause of car companies folding/having problems is due to poor branding and/or support from their manufacturing base
some examples: GM, Ford, Dodge (hell all american car companies for that matter haha), Mazda (SMH), and Jaguar
Here's the problem Hyundai faces with setting up a "Luxury" nameplate:
Honda was known as a company that made extremely reliable, if a bit boring cars. In the 80's, Honda's US offerings were limited to the Accord, CVCC/Civic, Prelude, and the CRX. Honda, however, had entered into a joint venture with Rover to develop a car in much the same way that GM and Toyota did the same earlier in the decade to develop the Nova/Corolla twins. The resulting car, the Legend, was sold under the Acura nameplate, and in order to give buyers a choice, they brought over the Honda Quint Integra, rebadged as the Acura Integra. (incidentally, the Rover variant of the legend, the Rover 800 was also sold in the US under the nameplate Sterling... Shouted out by Greg Nice on "Sometimes I Rhyme Slow").
Toyota did it successfully because they didn't have the stigma of "cheap car" and they had a ? ton of cars they could bring to the states under a luxury nameplate. They developed the LS400 as a new car specifically to create a flagship luxury model and a brand and took a few existing cars and added them to the mix. The SC series is the 3rd generation Toyota Soarer (first two gens not available in north america). The GS was based on a then two year old Toyota Aristo. The ES was famously based on the Camary, with the original ES250 looking so much like the Camary that it got clowned (Toyota took it off that platform for the 2nd gen, but it went back on the Camary platform for gen 3 onward).
Nissan, like Toyota, didn't have the stigma either. In fact, Nissan was known for performance oriented cars like the ZX series, Silvia/SX series (S12 200SX and up), NX series, and Maxima SE as well as the well known yet never released in America Skyline GT-R. Nissan. With Honda's Acura namplate doing well, and Toyota's Lexus on the horizon, they took their Nissan President, tweaked it and rebadged it as the Infiniti Q45, then they took the Nissan Leopard and rebadged it as the Infiniti M30. Playing one-up, they also took the M30 and chopped the top for a convertible variant which no other Japanese luxury make had at the time.
Mazda did attempt to create a line of cars under the nameplate "Amati" but it never got off the ground. I had to do a wikipedia search 'cause my memory is fuzzy on it, but apparently the Mazda Millenia was originally supposed to be an Amati car along with a coupe based on the RWD Mazda Cosmos coupe (which I remember from the 90's as a car I wished Mazda brought over to the US), and a V12 variant of the 929. It probably would have done well, but Mazda didn't think so and scrapped the whole plan.
Why this worked for these companies but won't for Hyundai is that not one of these companies have the "cheap" label attached. All were respected as companies that made well built, long lasting cars so no one batted an eye when they wanted to go upscale.
No one will trust a "luxury" Hyundai. Not for a looooon time. -
Nobody is buying a Hyundai over a BMW if they are priced similarly....it will NEVER happen. Hyundai (and KIA) have had MONSTER sales for the past 2 years.They will need a few more years of that before even thinking about launching another brand.
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Black_Samson wrote: »hyundai started to gain steam in 03 with them bringing out the V6 Tiburon.
yeah, but it was waaaaaaay underpowered for what it looked like. Shoulda had at least 200hp. The V6 powered competition had 200 or more (210hp in the Eclipse) and even the 4 bangers had more power (Celica had ~190hp, Prelude had ~200hp, Scion TC supercharged had 200hp, Saturn Ion Redline had 200hp in normal trim and 240hp with factory Stage 2).
The Genesis coupe was the real step in the right direction. RWD, lots of power and enough twist to get it off the line quickly.
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konceptjones wrote: »Black_Samson wrote: »hyundai started to gain steam in 03 with them bringing out the V6 Tiburon.
yeah, but it was waaaaaaay underpowered for what it looked like. Shoulda had at least 200hp. The V6 powered competition had 200 or more (210hp in the Eclipse) and even the 4 bangers had more power (Celica had ~190hp, Prelude had ~200hp, Scion TC supercharged had 200hp, Saturn Ion Redline had 200hp in normal trim and 240hp with factory Stage 2).
The Genesis coupe was the real step in the right direction. RWD, lots of power and enough twist to get it off the line quickly.
The next GC is gonna have the 5.0 V8 from the Genesis Sedan R-spec....or a twin turbo V6. -
We forget that this was once what Hyundai considered a "performance coupe"
The turbo version had a mind numbing 115hp. Went from 0 to 60 in an amazing 9.5 seconds. -
konceptjones wrote: »We forget that this was once what Hyundai considered a "performance coupe"
The turbo version had a mind numbing 115hp. Went from 0 to 60 in an amazing 9.5 seconds.
You know thats not "terrible" for that category of car in that time period. I mean 2.0L Golf GTI's were making 115hp as well (non VR6 obviously) in 1995. -
konceptjones wrote: »blakfyahking wrote: »cats in here agreeing that Hyundai still got brand issues
but don't think they need to set up a separate "luxury" division?
cats need to pay attention to branding issues like this..............cause this is typical of what businesses do to ? up a good product
this is especially a big issue in the car industry, which is why it seems like many cars today are starting to look more and more like their competitors
and in the end it leaves consumers with less options to choose from IMO
common cause of car companies folding/having problems is due to poor branding and/or support from their manufacturing base
some examples: GM, Ford, Dodge (hell all american car companies for that matter haha), Mazda (SMH), and Jaguar
Here's the problem Hyundai faces with setting up a "Luxury" nameplate:
Honda was known as a company that made extremely reliable, if a bit boring cars. In the 80's, Honda's US offerings were limited to the Accord, CVCC/Civic, Prelude, and the CRX. Honda, however, had entered into a joint venture with Rover to develop a car in much the same way that GM and Toyota did the same earlier in the decade to develop the Nova/Corolla twins. The resulting car, the Legend, was sold under the Acura nameplate, and in order to give buyers a choice, they brought over the Honda Quint Integra, rebadged as the Acura Integra. (incidentally, the Rover variant of the legend, the Rover 800 was also sold in the US under the nameplate Sterling... Shouted out by Greg Nice on "Sometimes I Rhyme Slow").
Toyota did it successfully because they didn't have the stigma of "cheap car" and they had a ? ton of cars they could bring to the states under a luxury nameplate. They developed the LS400 as a new car specifically to create a flagship luxury model and a brand and took a few existing cars and added them to the mix. The SC series is the 3rd generation Toyota Soarer (first two gens not available in north america). The GS was based on a then two year old Toyota Aristo. The ES was famously based on the Camary, with the original ES250 looking so much like the Camary that it got clowned (Toyota took it off that platform for the 2nd gen, but it went back on the Camary platform for gen 3 onward).
Nissan, like Toyota, didn't have the stigma either. In fact, Nissan was known for performance oriented cars like the ZX series, Silvia/SX series (S12 200SX and up), NX series, and Maxima SE as well as the well known yet never released in America Skyline GT-R. Nissan. With Honda's Acura namplate doing well, and Toyota's Lexus on the horizon, they took their Nissan President, tweaked it and rebadged it as the Infiniti Q45, then they took the Nissan Leopard and rebadged it as the Infiniti M30. Playing one-up, they also took the M30 and chopped the top for a convertible variant which no other Japanese luxury make had at the time.
Mazda did attempt to create a line of cars under the nameplate "Amati" but it never got off the ground. I had to do a wikipedia search 'cause my memory is fuzzy on it, but apparently the Mazda Millenia was originally supposed to be an Amati car along with a coupe based on the RWD Mazda Cosmos coupe (which I remember from the 90's as a car I wished Mazda brought over to the US), and a V12 variant of the 929. It probably would have done well, but Mazda didn't think so and scrapped the whole plan.
Why this worked for these companies but won't for Hyundai is that not one of these companies have the "cheap" label attached. All were respected as companies that made well built, long lasting cars so no one batted an eye when they wanted to go upscale.
No one will trust a "luxury" Hyundai. Not for a looooon time.
the fact that you mentioned the Mazda Millenia gave your post extra credibility cause you obviously know what you are talking about
me personally, I'm a car purist so this is one of my favorite topics haha
I got a Mazda Millenia I keep as a daily driver now, and I love the car, but hate how Mazda ? up its potential
the Millenia replaced the 929 Mazda (my 1st legal whip) and I fell in love with Mazda as a teen
however, because they poorly executed it as a pre-luxury vehicle, Mazda brand is in shambles today
Mazda had the potential to be competing with luxury brands today because the designs and innovations in the Millenia were some of the 1st ideas that even luxury cars today use.............? is a tragedy to see how Mazda messed up even with Ford's money backing them (and Ford sharing platforms again is what ? up Mazda SMH)
I'll address the rest of your post in another postNobody is buying a Hyundai over a BMW if they are priced similarly....it will NEVER happen. Hyundai (and KIA) have had MONSTER sales for the past 2 years.They will need a few more years of that before even thinking about launching another brand.
10 yrs ago the bolded was obviously true
however, the fact that BMW has brought out these smaller, cheaper vehicles recently lets you know that Hyundai has become a serious threat
BMWs are only getting by Hyundais currently because of the strong brand and their road performance
but let Hyundai come out with a 500HP car and set up its luxury brand correctly, ? will def be a different story champ -
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/titangraph alert haha
also as far as Honda, Toyota, Nissan
these three brands enjoy a lot of manufacturing support.............which means not only is it cheaper to maintain their luxury vehicles, but they also enjoy heavy aftermarket support
Honda was able to pull off Acura because they had a motorcycle racing heritage........and Honda was smart enough to recognize that there was an open market for mid-range luxury vehicles that offered a more affordable standard of quality.....................combining Honda's motorcycle heritage with a new luxury brand was smart because Honda recognized that there was a market for them to make luxury vehicles, but it didn't make sense to risk messing with selling their bread and butter (ie. Civics and later Accords). Diluting any "luxury" brand would have only diminished the "stunt factor" that a luxury vehicle is suppose to provide
Nissan had already become successful selling Datsuns, and eventually recognized the need to compete with Honda's new Acura brand. But Nissan was already like Mazda in the sense that they had racer/sports like vehicles that could serve a niche market. Nissan knew that even though cars like the Fairlady Z and later the Maxima were great cars, they saw that there were customers who were checking for Nissan but were looking for more luxury. Hence it made sense to come out with Infiniti
Toyota was the same way as Honda as far as being successful selling small vehicles except Toyota's marketing and manufacturing expertise gave it an edge over the other two. Toyota was able to sell both small family cars like Honda, but was also able to sell sportier cars like Nissan. So Toyota knew they were going to have to have a luxury brand too, hence Lexus was born
The thing about Japanese cars is they have an advantage in electronics integration in their vehicles, and they historically gained in US markets because of their fuel efficiency
Hyundai is screwed in the sense that it doesn't have a racing heritage, nor did it have great manufacturing support which meant the 1st time Hyundai sold Excels in the 80s, potential customers weren't willing invest a lot in purchasing many other Hyundai products
now that Hyundai has improved its quality thru better manufacturing and support, now customers are willing to consider the Hyundai as a legitimate car. Hyundai could have ended up like Mazda, but they were at least smart enough to recognize that pre-luxury is a dangerous category to compete in. Especially if your ultimate goal is to compete in the higher categories that BMW and MB serve
Hyundai would be wise to take advantage to re-badge their luxury cars now while the rest of the car industry is shaky -
EmM HoLLa. wrote: »wilberdmillz wrote: »blakfyahking wrote: »Hyundai really needs to stop being lazy and re-brand these luxury vehicles they trying to come out with
they are going to make the same mistake that Mazda made in the 90s and end up ? up their identity
a lot more customers would be willing to buy Hyundai's high end cars, but they can't get past Hyundai historic "cheap" label
I dont think they need to set up a whole new dealer network and infrastructure for the brand. Just rebadge the vehicles as pure Genesis and set a separate area in the dealership just for the Genesis brand with exclusive sales people/tech etc. Hyundai's proposition right now is great value for dollar, incurring more expense would reduce that proposition.
Kinda like Fiat is doing with SRT? I think it will work initially but once people realize its still Hyundai it won't matter. No matter what anyone says the new Viper is still a Dodge. As said it's all about marketing though.
Lexus was (and is still a Toyota) at one point. Hyundai and Kia are both rapidly shedding the budget stigma. Both of them keep having record sales months, quarters and years. I don't think the old school prejudices are going to be a problem within the next 5 to 10 years. German cars are getting exposed for being just as unreliable if not MORE unreliable than American, Asian cars. There was a reliability study done by a german magazine that took a survey of over 200,000 cars and owners and Hyundai came out on top, beating out Benz, Bimmer, Audi etc.
One thing you need to take into account.. Folks who buy German cars.. Do not buy them for reliability.. Reliability is probably at the end of their list of reasons why they buy German... A German car buyer IMO wouldnt even consider anything from Hyundai or Kia.. Whether they rebrand it or not... Although rebranding would probably help these auto makers..
I agree 100% even Hyundai execs will admit this to you. I dont think they are going after zee Germans, but by benchmarking the germans they are pounding on the ? like Acura and Infiniti...maybe a little Lexus. -
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