Marcus Garvey and ?

Bodhi
Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2013 in R & R (Religion and Race)
"There is a ? and we believe in Him. He is not a person nor a physical being. He is a spirit and He is universal intelligence ... man's intelligence is only a unitary particle of ? 's universal intelligence ... All the unitary intelligence of the universe goes to make ? who is the embodiment of all intelligence"
http://books.google.com/books?id=chR4mGJNCS0C&pg=PA221&dq=marcus+garvey+lesson+5+? &hl=en&sa=X&ei=bXrjUbX1Mq-z4APvp4DIBA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=marcus%20garvey%20lesson%205%20god&f=false
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  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @zombie
    Garvey believed in ? as being the embodiment of all unitary intelligence in the universe, not a transcendent creator.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is the entire chapter on ? :

    There is a ? and we believe in Him. He is not a person nor a physical being. He is spirit and He is universal intelligence. Never deny that there is a ? . ? being universal intelligence created the universe out of that intelligence. It is intelligence that creates. Man is a part of the creation of universal intelligence and man was created in the image and likeness of ? only by his intelligence. It is the intelligence of man that is like ? , but man's intelligence is only a unitary particle of ? 's universal intelligence.
    ? out of His universal intelligence made matter and made mind. That matter is made by ? and man is matter as well as mind; then man must be in the image of ? , because nothing could exist without ? . As ? made the universe out of His universal knowledge or intelligence so man in his unitary knowledge or intelligence can make a typewriter, an automobile or a chair, but cannot make the universe because his unitary intelligence is not as much or as great as universal intelligence. All the unitary intelligence of the universe goes to make ? who is the embodiment of all intelligence, so no man can be as great as ? because he is only a unit of ? and ? is the whole.
    No man therefore can measure ? nor ask ? questions because he is not as intelligent as ? and therefore cannot understand ? . It is presumptuous therefore, when man questions ? from his limited unitary intelligence.
    Man never dies. Nothing dies. Man is made of body and spirit. The spirit is ? . It is intelligence. The body of man is matter. It changes from living matter in the man to other matter in the soil. It is always the same matter. It doesn't die in the sense of how we understand death. It changes. When man sleeps and passes away in the flesh he goes to earth that lives on, out of which other men and things are formed. All matter is related so man is related to earth and earth related to man. We eat ourselves over and over again. When we eat the apple, the banana, the fig, the cherry, the grape, when we drink the water, we are eating and drinking ourselves over and over again, so nothing is lost and nothing dies, so do not be afraid of death, because what you call death is only change and you are still in the universe either in the spirit of ? to whom your spirit goes after the change or as matter which goes on forever.
    You are related to the flower, to the beautiful rose, to the trees, to the fish and to other animals just as you are related to ? .
    All of you sprung from ? who is universal intelligence. Do not be more cowardly than the rose, the apple, the coconut, the sheep, the fish or the cow to do that which all must, and which we call death, to die. If you are going to weep to die then the rose should weep to die. If you weep you are a coward. Die like a man because you are not lost, you are still there. You only weep because you are a glutton, because you think you will not get any more to eat and drink and any more happy times; just as you have been feeding upon things, and other beings who came here before you, so someone else must feed on you to make creation true, otherwise ? would not be fair to everybody and everything, and ? is fair and just and no respecter of persons or things.


    Marcus Garvey: Life and Lessons, edited by Robert A. Hill and Barbara Bair (University of California Press, 1987), Pages 221-222.

    http://www.zhurnal.ru/music/rasta/garvey.html
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    More specifically, pay attention to this which is repeated for emphasis:

    Man never dies. Nothing dies. Man is made of body and spirit. The spirit is ? . It is intelligence. The body of man is matter. It changes from living matter in the man to other matter in the soil. It is always the same matter. It doesn't die in the sense of how we understand death. It changes. When man sleeps and passes away in the flesh he goes to earth that lives on, out of which other men and things are formed. All matter is related so man is related to earth and earth related to man. We eat ourselves over and over again. When we eat the apple, the banana, the fig, the cherry, the grape, when we drink the water, we are eating and drinking ourselves over and over again, so nothing is lost and nothing dies, so do not be afraid of death, because what you call death is only change and you are still in the universe either in the spirit of ? to whom your spirit goes after the change or as matter which goes on forever.
    You are related to the flower, to the beautiful rose, to the trees, to the fish and to other animals just as you are related to ? .


    Garvey seemed to be a pantheist Christian.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    More specifically, pay attention to this which is repeated for emphasis:

    Man never dies. Nothing dies. Man is made of body and spirit. The spirit is ? . It is intelligence. The body of man is matter. It changes from living matter in the man to other matter in the soil. It is always the same matter. It doesn't die in the sense of how we understand death. It changes. When man sleeps and passes away in the flesh he goes to earth that lives on, out of which other men and things are formed. All matter is related so man is related to earth and earth related to man. We eat ourselves over and over again. When we eat the apple, the banana, the fig, the cherry, the grape, when we drink the water, we are eating and drinking ourselves over and over again, so nothing is lost and nothing dies, so do not be afraid of death, because what you call death is only change and you are still in the universe either in the spirit of ? to whom your spirit goes after the change or as matter which goes on forever.
    You are related to the flower, to the beautiful rose, to the trees, to the fish and to other animals just as you are related to ? .


    Garvey seemed to be a pantheist Christian.

    oceanic everything here only reaffirms that garvey was a normal christian
    yeah we don't die the soul is eternal the bible says from the earth ? made us and to it we shall return, this right here is not helping your case. gen 3 :19
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    More quotes:

    No part is greater than the whole. The whole is always greater than any single part and man is only a single part of ? .

    ..and..

    The Holy Ghost is the spirit of ? at large. It is everywhere. It is really what we call the spirit.
    In everything that you see, there is the spirit of the Holy Ghost. Man can be a complete manifestation of that spirit


    ..so..

    The life of Christ is intended to show man that by obedience he can lift himself to the highest soul expression in keeping with the Holy Spirit of ? , of which he is a part, but only with free will. A free will can do as he likes. Man has a body, a soul which is his own identification of himself and the Holy Spirit of ? .
    In the vilest man, there is the Holy Spirit of ? and that man cannot destroy the Holy Spirit of ? because that spirit in him is the unit of ? which cannot sin and cannot die because it is everlasting goodness.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=tMkPehHDd-wC&pg=PA52&dq=marcus+garvey+in+the+vilest+man,+there+is+the+holy+spirit&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cXzjUfiDMcvi4APXh4GoAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=marcus garvey in the vilest man, there is the holy spirit&f=false
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    yeah we don't die the soul is eternal

    This is not what Garvey believed.

    [the soul] passes away if it is bad and lives on like Christ if it is good.... the thing that sins in man is the man's individual soul, which is his mind.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Here is the entire chapter on ? :

    There is a ? and we believe in Him. He is not a person nor a physical being. He is spirit and He is universal intelligence. Never deny that there is a ? . ? being universal intelligence created the universe out of that intelligence. It is intelligence that creates. Man is a part of the creation of universal intelligence and man was created in the image and likeness of ? only by his intelligence. It is the intelligence of man that is like ? , but man's intelligence is only a unitary particle of ? 's universal intelligence.
    ? out of His universal intelligence made matter and made mind. That matter is made by ? and man is matter as well as mind; then man must be in the image of ? , because nothing could exist without ? . As ? made the universe out of His universal knowledge or intelligence so man in his unitary knowledge or intelligence can make a typewriter, an automobile or a chair, but cannot make the universe because his unitary intelligence is not as much or as great as universal intelligence. All the unitary intelligence of the universe goes to make ? who is the embodiment of all intelligence, so no man can be as great as ? because he is only a unit of ? and ? is the whole.
    No man therefore can measure ? nor ask ? questions because he is not as intelligent as ? and therefore cannot understand ? . It is presumptuous therefore, when man questions ? from his limited unitary intelligence.
    Man never dies. Nothing dies. Man is made of body and spirit. The spirit is ? . It is intelligence. The body of man is matter. It changes from living matter in the man to other matter in the soil. It is always the same matter. It doesn't die in the sense of how we understand death. It changes. When man sleeps and passes away in the flesh he goes to earth that lives on, out of which other men and things are formed. All matter is related so man is related to earth and earth related to man. We eat ourselves over and over again. When we eat the apple, the banana, the fig, the cherry, the grape, when we drink the water, we are eating and drinking ourselves over and over again, so nothing is lost and nothing dies, so do not be afraid of death, because what you call death is only change and you are still in the universe either in the spirit of ? to whom your spirit goes after the change or as matter which goes on forever.
    You are related to the flower, to the beautiful rose, to the trees, to the fish and to other animals just as you are related to ? .
    All of you sprung from ? who is universal intelligence. Do not be more cowardly than the rose, the apple, the coconut, the sheep, the fish or the cow to do that which all must, and which we call death, to die. If you are going to weep to die then the rose should weep to die. If you weep you are a coward. Die like a man because you are not lost, you are still there. You only weep because you are a glutton, because you think you will not get any more to eat and drink and any more happy times; just as you have been feeding upon things, and other beings who came here before you, so someone else must feed on you to make creation true, otherwise ? would not be fair to everybody and everything, and ? is fair and just and no respecter of persons or things.


    Marcus Garvey: Life and Lessons, edited by Robert A. Hill and Barbara Bair (University of California Press, 1987), Pages 221-222.

    http://www.zhurnal.ru/music/rasta/garvey.html

    once again this seems like normal trinity based christian teaching.? is spirit john 4:24 says that . yes ? is universal intelligence he knows all and all wisdom and knowledge comes from him. ? made man and formed him by his wisdom the bible teaches this. all our knowledge comes from ? that is really all he is saying here all our knowledge is only part of gods

  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    once again this seems like normal trinity based christian teaching.? is spirit john 4:24 says that . yes ? is universal intelligence he knows all and all wisdom and knowledge comes from him. ? made man and formed him by his wisdom the bible teaches this. all our knowledge comes from ? that is really all he is saying here all our knowledge is only part of gods

    Nah, playa. Normal trinity based Christianity holds that ? is intelligence separate and transcendent from creation. Marcus Garvey, however, believes that ? is the embodiment of all unitary intelligence, i.e. every single mind goes to make the mind of ? . In this philosophy of his, man is a part of ? . In orthodox Christianity, we are not parts of ? , but separate creations of his.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Garvey didn't even believe in hell.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is what garvey said right from his mouth no twisting of words needed

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUctEAmeUak

    skip to 1:25

    how much more clear does he have to be.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    I can't see that. I'll have to get out my kindle. I'm going to the cafe first though to see what they got to eat.

    Give me a synopsis.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    once again this seems like normal trinity based christian teaching.? is spirit john 4:24 says that . yes ? is universal intelligence he knows all and all wisdom and knowledge comes from him. ? made man and formed him by his wisdom the bible teaches this. all our knowledge comes from ? that is really all he is saying here all our knowledge is only part of gods

    Nah, playa. Normal trinity based Christianity holds that ? is intelligence separate and transcendent from creation. Marcus Garvey, however, believes that ? is the embodiment of all unitary intelligence, i.e. every single mind goes to make the mind of ? . In this philosophy of his, man is a part of ? . In orthodox Christianity, we are not parts of ? , but separate creations of his.


    Garvey is not saying we are parts of ? he is saying our intelligence is part of gods intelligence and our intelligence it comes from ? .
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    I can't see that. I'll have to get out my kindle. I'm going to the cafe first though to see what they got to eat.

    Give me a synopsis.

    I am going to sleep now we will finish this later.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    Garvey is not saying we are parts of ? he is saying our intelligence is part of gods intelligence and our intelligence it comes from ? .

    Garvey said ? IS intelligence, albeit universal intelligence..

    All the unitary intelligence of the universe goes to make ? who is the embodiment of all intelligence, so no man can be as great as ? because he is only a unit of ? and ? is the whole
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    He believed that ? is eternal mind which created matter and dispersed its own mind to "fill" that matter thus creating man. When man dies, the mind of ? in man (which is the Holy Ghost) goes back to the totality (? ), the free will mind of man dies (assuming man is evil), and the natural world, or matter, continues eternally being ? himself. He contradicts himself some but all in all, he was definitely not orthodox Christian.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    we will finish this later.

    Omar-Oh-Indeed.gif
  • bambu
    bambu Members Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He still believed in a ? /creator.......

    Without this he suggests that men are immoral & destined for barbarism......

    He was prophet Noble Drew Ali's forerunner.......

    "In these modern days there came a forerunner of Jesus, who was divinely prepared by the great ? -Allah and his name is Marcus Garvey, who did teach and warn the nations of the earth to prepare to meet the coming Prophet; who was to bring the true and divine Creed of Islam, and his name is Noble Drew Ali who was prepared and sent to this earth by Allah, to teach the old time religion and the everlasting gospel to the sons of men. That every nation shall and must worship under their own vine and fig tree, and return to their own and be one with their Father ? -Allah"

    Noble Drew Ali

  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 Members Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm so weary of mortal talk, get up on my level and trascend ? .
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    I never said he didn't believe in ?

    *confused*


    Didn't read the rest..
  • bambu
    bambu Members Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He states that without belief in ? , men are heathens.......

    I'm sure you got that part.......

    If you need the direct quote, it's in the old Garvey thread......

  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Doesn't matter. It's not relevant since I never said he didn't believe in a ? . In fact, my opening post says that he does believe in a ? . This thread is a debate on the specifics of his beliefs in ? . What part of that don't you get?
  • bambu
    bambu Members Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't get why a heathen would even be concerned.......

  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not surprised. You don't seem to "get" much of anything.
  • bambu
    bambu Members Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I welcome you as a recently converted heathen.......

  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    I can't see that. I'll have to get out my kindle. I'm going to the cafe first though to see what they got to eat.

    Give me a synopsis.

    In this video of marcus very famous speech he basically states his belief in ? the son, ? the father and ? the holy ghost. the ? of ethiopia, there is no twisting of words there he is direct in what he says. so his religious beliefs line up with what we would call normal christian teaching for his time.
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Doesn't matter. It's not relevant since I never said he didn't believe in a ? . In fact, my opening post says that he does believe in a ? . This thread is a debate on the specifics of his beliefs in ? . What part of that don't you get?

    He does not believe in just A ? he believed in the ? of abraham. That same ? who knows all things and gives all knowledge so all intelligence comes from him. man's unitary intelligence is not pieces of ? . It is small pieces of his knowledge that he has given to us. intelligence as used by garvey here does not mean self awareness he's not using the word like that.

    he means knowledge or understanding the paragraph gives an example of this.

    By the way your source was compiled and edited by other people not garvey himself but the speech i dropped garvey spoke with his own mouth.