Skyfather level tournament
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Mephisto is a hell lord. His power dwarfs Thanos and its always been that way.
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting
The difference is that Squirrel Girl is obviously meant to be taken as a joke.
Also, Dormy's was not at his normal power levels when he fought Eternity so that doesn't count. I agree with you that it would be nice to have feats to back up statements, but in the case of characters who aren't used much like Shuma, he's not going to have a bunch of in book feats, so all we can go by is the statements we are given.
that's the thing..statements are always given in books. Superman said that Thor was the toughest opponent he ever faced, despite being killed by Doomsday. Dormammu fought Eternity twice..once with the aid of his sister and other just his own power..which one are you referring to?
@evil, Mephisto is more powerful than Thanos
Well, I thought you were talking about the one he won. The other one he was fairly easily dismissed to another realm if I remember correctly, so there is no point in even bringing that one up. But I might be forgetting details. -
yeah you're forgetting the details
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Well, the fact remains that he lost. Sure the scale of the battle was huge, but all cosmic battles are huge. Hell, when Galactus attacked Thanos with the IG, it said that they were basically ripping reality apart. Galactus still took an ass whooping.
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Odin
In infinity Crusade Mephisto was petrified of Thanos (with no power ups). I am not sure thats accurate...Mephisto also loses a lot...and he had much more trouble with Surfer than Thanos ever had and he lost to Warlock, and he lost to black panther...there is no evidence that he dwarfs Thanos.Mephisto is a hell lord. His power dwarfs Thanos and its always been that way. -
Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
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OdinEither way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.
Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well
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OdinMephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I -
evoljeanyes wrote: »Either way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.
Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well
I don't really get your point here. I don't see the parallel between this and darkraiden's argument. I'm not saying that Shuma is stronger because he's conquered hundreds of universes. But even in that, it would be a valid argument in this case because unlike Galactus who has no desire to be a conqueror, Dormammu does want to do that. So Shuma conquering over 100 separate universes is a greater feat than Dormammu conquering several dimensions within the 616 universe.
Also, it's not logically sound to say Dormammu is stronger than Shuma because he has more on panel feats. Dormammu has popped up in the comics a lot more so of course he has more feats. But even then, it's not just the spoken things that are more impressive. Like someone said, Strange accidentally destroyed galaxies simply by channeling a portion of Shuma's power. Dormammu has been manifested in the proper 616 universe, and his presence has never been shown to be that dangerous.
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OdinThe Lonious Monk wrote: »evoljeanyes wrote: »Either way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.
Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well
I don't really get your point here. I don't see the parallel between this and darkraiden's argument. I'm not saying that Shuma is stronger because he's conquered hundreds of universes. But even in that, it would be a valid argument in this case because unlike Galactus who has no desire to be a conqueror, Dormammu does want to do that. So Shuma conquering over 100 separate universes is a greater feat than Dormammu conquering several dimensions within the 616 universe.
Also, it's not logically sound to say Dormammu is stronger than Shuma because he has more on panel feats. Dormammu has popped up in the comics a lot more so of course he has more feats. But even then, it's not just the spoken things that are more impressive. Like someone said, Strange accidentally destroyed galaxies simply by channeling a portion of Shuma's power. Dormammu has been manifested in the proper 616 universe, and his presence has never been shown to be that dangerous.
So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't ? out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything
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evoljeanyes wrote: »Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I
that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto -
Shuma has just made an appearance, so let's see where Marvel goes with this showing. Perhaps he's the Great Destroyer for this event
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evoljeanyes wrote: »So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't ? out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything
What exception? The statement we have from a reliable source assessing his power puts him above the other Demon Lords. The few feats or on-panel hints about his power are beyond what we've seen from the other Demon Lords. That is why I say he's above Dormammu. No, it's not a rock solid case where he has a ton of feats that Dormammu can't replicate, but that's largely because he hasn't even shown up in the comics much. You want to ignore everything that would point us towards believing he is more powerful simply because Dormammu has more feats even though that's more due to Dormammu having more panel time than anything else. That doesn't make sense. We can say tentatively based on the limited information we have, Shuma is more powerful. That's my stance. We can also say that there really isn't enough reliable information available to draw a strong conclusion. That's fair. But there is no way you can say that Dormammu is above or even on Shuma's level because there is absolutely nothing at all supporting that claim.
On a side note, Shuma has conquered over 100 universes. That means he's subjugated over 100 Eternities. And Eternity is part of a larger multi-versal being meaning that unlike characters like Galactus who are completely different characters from universe to universe, all the Eternities are related and cognizant of each other.
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where was it ever stated or shown he's subjugated 100 Eternities?
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He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.
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OdinThe Lonious Monk wrote: »evoljeanyes wrote: »So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't ? out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything
What exception? The statement we have from a reliable source assessing his power puts him above the other Demon Lords. The few feats or on-panel hints about his power are beyond what we've seen from the other Demon Lords. That is why I say he's above Dormammu. No, it's not a rock solid case where he has a ton of feats that Dormammu can't replicate, but that's largely because he hasn't even shown up in the comics much. You want to ignore everything that would point us towards believing he is more powerful simply because Dormammu has more feats even though that's more due to Dormammu having more panel time than anything else. That doesn't make sense. We can say tentatively based on the limited information we have, Shuma is more powerful. That's my stance. We can also say that there really isn't enough reliable information available to draw a strong conclusion. That's fair. But there is no way you can say that Dormammu is above or even on Shuma's level because there is absolutely nothing at all supporting that claim.
On a side note, Shuma has conquered over 100 universes. That means he's subjugated over 100 Eternities. And Eternity is part of a larger multi-versal being meaning that unlike characters like Galactus who are completely different characters from universe to universe, all the Eternities are related and cognizant of each other.
Bro, I understand. I agree that Shuma is above Dormammu I said that. I was just trying to understand why you decided on Shuma. -
I said before. Strange statement suggest he is and his mere manifestation in the 616 Universe seemed to be far more dire than Dormammu's has ever been. I get that that is not the greatest proof, but it's as much as we have, so I'm not going to discount it.
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so you just made that part upThe Lonious Monk wrote: »He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.
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Odinevoljeanyes wrote: »Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I
that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto
That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is ? . You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance. -
Odin
so you just made that part upThe Lonious Monk wrote: »He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.
It seems more like speculation. Logical. But speculative. Inaccurate speculation given the lack of continuity between writers.
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evoljeanyes wrote: »evoljeanyes wrote: »Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I
that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto
That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is ? . You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance.
I don't recall arguing about Cytorrak, but ok. Thanos has never been a threat to Galactus and that clone being as strong as Galactus is hyperbole, since you know, Thanos has no idea how powerful Galactus truly is. Its common knowledge that Thanos isn't as powerful as a hell lord. Mephisto is a hell lord. His fights with Surfer and Thor are about obtaining their souls, it's not about beating them to a pulp since he's cabable of killing them both rather easily. He sees the Surfer as one with one of the nobliest, purest souls in the universe..Galactus threaten to eat the realm because the battle with Mephisto was going on much longer than he anticipated. When has Thanos ever challenged Galactus this way? When Thanos got the sucker shot in on a starving Galactus in the Hunger, what happened to him? Thanos was happy to still be alive after a casual blast from Galactus penetrated his shielding and nearly killed him. I mean we can agree to disagree on this one -
Odinevoljeanyes wrote: »evoljeanyes wrote: »Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.
So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I
that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto
That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is ? . You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance.
I don't recall arguing about Cytorrak, but ok. Thanos has never been a threat to Galactus and that clone being as strong as Galactus is hyperbole, since you know, Thanos has no idea how powerful Galactus truly is. Its common knowledge that Thanos isn't as powerful as a hell lord. Mephisto is a hell lord. His fights with Surfer and Thor are about obtaining their souls, it's not about beating them to a pulp since he's cabable of killing them both rather easily. He sees the Surfer as one with one of the nobliest, purest souls in the universe..Galactus threaten to eat the realm because the battle with Mephisto was going on much longer than he anticipated. When has Thanos ever challenged Galactus this way? When Thanos got the sucker shot in on a starving Galactus in the Hunger, what happened to him? Thanos was happy to still be alive after a casual blast from Galactus penetrated his shielding and nearly killed him. I mean we can agree to disagree on this one
@jaxn dude we're just talking, bruh...no diss. Tell me where this common knowledge comes from bro. Thanos treats Mephisto like Warlock treats Surfer you just know who the authority is on the matter. Have you read Infinity Crusade? -
no diss meant. this knowledge comes from the comics. I can't say if Thanos is more powerful than any hell lord. I do have Infinity Crusade, it was a pretty decent story arc but i haven't read it in years. The only time I recall Mephisto playing the lackey to Thanos is when Thanos was obtaining the gems..Mephisto lied to Thanos so he could later betray him and steal the power for himself. Meph's fight with Galactus was said to shake the cosmos as they battled, which is why he eventually threatened to eat his realm. He's not more powerful than Galan by no means though. Mephisto originally was the one who played a role in the creation of Ghost Rider. Mephisto walks around granting folks immortality and is resposibe for Mary Jane and Spiderman's marriage being wiped away. He also removed the memory of Spiderman's secret identity from everyone on the planet after Civil War. Like i said though, we can agree to disagree, its no biggie
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Shuma Gorath
Thanos gave Deadpool immortalityno diss meant. this knowledge comes from the comics. I can't say if Thanos is more powerful than any hell lord. I do have Infinity Crusade, it was a pretty decent story arc but i haven't read it in years. The only time I recall Mephisto playing the lackey to Thanos is when Thanos was obtaining the gems..Mephisto lied to Thanos so he could later betray him and steal the power for himself. Meph's fight with Galactus was said to shake the cosmos as they battled, which is why he eventually threatened to eat his realm. He's not more powerful than Galan by no means though. Mephisto originally was the one who played a role in the creation of Ghost Rider. Mephisto walks around granting folks immortality and is resposibe for Mary Jane and Spiderman's marriage being wiped away. He also removed the memory of Spiderman's secret identity from everyone on the planet after Civil War. Like i said though, we can agree to disagree, its no biggie
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Odin@jaxn yeah we're probably going to have to disagree on this one bruh. Its all good.
