If you believe the Devil will punish you in hell..

KLICHE
KLICHE Members Posts: 5,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
This won't apply to all, but some have said that if you bad on earth, then you are punished in hell, with Satan governing that punishment..

A question I heard was "if Satan commands you to do bad in life, and you do bad, then wouldn't he be pleased with you in death, with entering hell, rather than punish you?"



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Comments

  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Christians depict Satan as the great deceiver so no. In Christianity, Satan's "hobby" is tricking people into following him and punishing them in the process. It's like a Venus fly trap. What seems attractive is in reality life threatening.. or in the case of Christianity, soul threatening. His hate for ? extends to ? 's creation. He's like an internet troll.
  • KLICHE
    KLICHE Members Posts: 5,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Christians depict Satan as the great deceiver so no. In Christianity, Satan's "hobby" is tricking people into following him and punishing them in the process. It's like a Venus fly trap. What seems attractive is in reality life threatening.. or in the case of Christianity, soul threatening. His hate for ? extends to ? 's creation. He's like an internet troll.

    Fair call. I said to this person that he does his job well at deceiving, and I got told, but ? created him and his nature.

    At times it seems so roundabout that I remain believing in a Creator, but no solid affiliations elsewhere.

  • KLICHE
    KLICHE Members Posts: 5,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    P.s I hope you weren't insinuating I was a devil like internet troll, with my thread lol

  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satan won't be punishing anybody in the lake of fire. Satan will be at the bottom of the lake of fire getting the most brutal punishment of all; and the smoke of his torment will ascend forever and ever.
  • Rock_Well
    Rock_Well Members Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2013
    false premise... as far as Christianity and the Bible is concerned, Satan gon get it the worst in Hell, suffering, his only time spent 'ruling' is in this physical life/world
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KLICHE wrote: »
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Christians depict Satan as the great deceiver so no. In Christianity, Satan's "hobby" is tricking people into following him and punishing them in the process. It's like a Venus fly trap. What seems attractive is in reality life threatening.. or in the case of Christianity, soul threatening. His hate for ? extends to ? 's creation. He's like an internet troll.

    Fair call. I said to this person that he does his job well at deceiving, and I got told, but ? created him and his nature.

    At times it seems so roundabout that I remain believing in a Creator, but no solid affiliations elsewhere.

    Yeah it doesn't make any sense that ? , being all knowing, would create satan to be the great deceiver at all. But that's one of the many problems within Christianity. I'm glad you've noticed the inconsistency there.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KLICHE wrote: »
    P.s I hope you weren't insinuating I was a devil like internet troll, with my thread lol

    Nah..
  • alissowack
    alissowack Members Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    I believe the Devil doesn't care what man does...whether good deeds or bad deeds...as long as man is not seeking ? while doing so.
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    KLICHE wrote: »
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Christians depict Satan as the great deceiver so no. In Christianity, Satan's "hobby" is tricking people into following him and punishing them in the process. It's like a Venus fly trap. What seems attractive is in reality life threatening.. or in the case of Christianity, soul threatening. His hate for ? extends to ? 's creation. He's like an internet troll.

    Fair call. I said to this person that he does his job well at deceiving, and I got told, but ? created him and his nature.

    At times it seems so roundabout that I remain believing in a Creator, but no solid affiliations elsewhere.

    Yeah it doesn't make any sense that ? , being all knowing, would create satan to be the great deceiver at all. But that's one of the many problems within Christianity. I'm glad you've noticed the inconsistency there.

    ? didn't create satan. ? created lucifer, who had free will to either obey ? or disobey ? . Lucifer had his name changed to satan after he rebelled against the rule of ? .

    Now why did ? create lucifer to begin with, even though He knew that one day he would rebell against him? Well my answer would be why not? Creators create. ? has a plan and He is working that plan out in order to demonstrate His marvelous love to all of His creative intelligences for all eternity.

    On the flipside, ? also knew that one day He would manifest himself in human flesh in order to be crucified by sinners. ? knew that this would happen even before He created the angels. But yet, He still went ahead and did it. Why? Because ? has a plan and it is glorious! His manifold wisdom, ways, and thoughts are so high above mankinds wisdom, ways, and thoughts that the length, breadth, and heigth of the heavens fail to illustrate the seperation between the 2.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You'll have to excuse me; I'm on my phone so I'll try to address your reply as clearly as possible. I'll number my responses to each paragraph you've written, respectively.

    1. If ? created Lucifer, he created Satan. From what I understand, they're the same soul. Just because Lucifer had a change of heart doesn't make him a completely different being.

    2. True, creators create but what doesn't make sense is ? 's supposed omnibenevolence and him knowingly creating an evil entity. When you knowingly do something or you do a thing where you know the outcome of said action, you are fully responsible. If ? knowingly creates evil, he is inherently evil himself.

    3. Any plan that involves unnecessary evil is not glorious, not to mention the fact that punishing others for your doings is immoral and attempting to reverse the effects of an act you've willfully committed, knowing beforehand all outcomes, is completely irrational. None of what ? dies seems wise to me.
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    You'll have to excuse me; I'm on my phone so I'll try to address your reply as clearly as possible. I'll number my responses to each paragraph you've written, respectively.

    1. If ? created Lucifer, he created Satan. From what I understand, they're the same soul. Just because Lucifer had a change of heart doesn't make him a completely different being.

    2. True, creators create but what doesn't make sense is ? 's supposed omnibenevolence and him knowingly creating an evil entity. When you knowingly do something or you do a thing where you know the outcome of said action, you are fully responsible. If ? knowingly creates evil, he is inherently evil himself.

    3. Any plan that involves unnecessary evil is not glorious, not to mention the fact that punishing others for your doings is immoral and attempting to reverse the effects of an act you've willfully committed, knowing beforehand all outcomes, is completely irrational. None of what ? dies seems wise to me.


    1. You fail to comprehend the power of names. ? gives names to His creatures in order to define their character and make up. When ? created Lucifer, He named him such because he was the "shining one". His name, Lucifer, matched his character and make-up because that is how ? created him. When Lucifer rebelled, ? changed his name to Satan because he was no longer the "shining one" but rather the "adversary". ? didn't create Satan, Lucifer choose to become Satan (the adversary) because of his rebellion against Gods rule.

    2. Ridiculous my friend. Human beings have children all the time regardless of the fact that they knowingly realize that one day their child will do bad, wrong, and evil things. But yet we still choose to have children despite the fact that one day that child will grow up and disrespect us, talk back to us, not listen to us, and rebel against us. Parents know that this will one day happen, but yet we still decide to have children regardless. Why? Because we want to reproduce ourselves through our offspring. We want children to love and nurture, despite the fact that they will one day reject all of our hard work, energy, time, and effort. But still love compels us to love our children no matter what.

    The same can be said for ? . Love is why He created all of us despite the fact that He knew many would reject His love. But because love always win, ? is demonstrating the power of love so that all of creation will see how far ? will go to reconcile all things back to Himself; Love goes so far that He even sent His Son to die on a cross in order to prove how far He would go to rescue the creatures He created. ? not only talks the talk, but He walks the walk. ? demonstrated His great love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us! Can I get a Hallelujah! Praise the Lord forever and ever! Thank you Jesus!

    3. The vastness of space is a inadequate representation of how far your thoughts are from Gods thoughts my friend. What seems wise to you is foolishness to ? my friend. The wisdom of ? is unsearchable my friend. Everything that ? does is right, just, and good! There is nothing evil about the plan of ? . What is evil is your rebellion against Him. Your failure to submit to His rule and authority is a terrible tragedy and a slap to His face. It's plain old pride. Your saying to the creator that you know better than Him. Your telling ? that you can hold the universe together and all things in it with your life and brain power. I mean how utterly foolish is that my friend? It's like a piece of printer paper one day rising up against me and telling me that it doesn't want to go through the printer! How preposterous is that! But yet, here we are as clay creatures who are here today and gone tomorrow telling ? that we know better than Him. My goodness! Praise ? for His great mercy and patience. It amazes me to see how long-suffering ? is toward us. All ? has to do is flinch and we would be consumed in an instant. But yet ? bares with us and our rebellion, because He will go to great lengths in order to receive us into His kingdom!

    Give your life to Christ my friend and live forever with ? ! Be ye reconciled back to the Father! Put on immortality by the blood of Jesus Christ. ? loves you my friend. It's futile to fight against it, because ? will always get the last word. You will have to see Him one day and how can you stand before the King of the universe apart from Christ Jesus as your advocate? Don't go to His cosmic court room unclothed and dead in your trespasses in sins! Change your destiny today and accept the King as your Savior! He loves you my friend. Amen.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. A name is given to represent something in words but it does not change the physical makeup of something. A pear doesn't become a strawberry if you name it that. It becomes even more difficult to reconcile when you believe in eternal souls. The soul that ? created as Lucifer is exactly the same soul as satan. I'm sure you believe that you are the same soul now as you were when you were "lost".

    2. The difference between ? and his creation.. and parents and their children.. is that ? is an omni benevolent and perfect being. Parents are not. Parents are, by nature, imperfect.. relatively speaking. They give birth to imperfect children. ? on the other hand, is supposedly perfect and all good. There is not a drop of imperfection or evil within him. It is not logical for him to create evil or imperfect creatures.

    3. I didn't say anything about the vastness of space but I simply do not believe anything else you've said. It'd not that I'm choosing to rise against ? . It would be ridiculous for me to put effort into rebelling against someone I do not believe exists. I'm only pointing out how irrational your theories are. I stand by what I said in my last post, point #3
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    1. A name is given to represent something in words but it does not change the physical makeup of something. A pear doesn't become a strawberry if you name it that. It becomes even more difficult to reconcile when you believe in eternal souls. The soul that ? created as Lucifer is exactly the same soul as satan. I'm sure you believe that you are the same soul now as you were when you were "lost".

    2. The difference between ? and his creation.. and parents and their children.. is that ? is an omni benevolent and perfect being. Parents are not. Parents are, by nature, imperfect.. relatively speaking. They give birth to imperfect children. ? on the other hand, is supposedly perfect and all good. There is not a drop of imperfection or evil within him. It is not logical for him to create evil or imperfect creatures.

    3. I didn't say anything about the vastness of space but I simply do not believe anything else you've said. It'd not that I'm choosing to rise against ? . It would be ridiculous for me to put effort into rebelling against someone I do not believe exists. I'm only pointing out how irrational your theories are. I stand by what I said in my last post, point #3

    1. You've missed the whole point my friend. It's not about changing the physical make-up of the object, but rather it's about the spiritual transformation of the creation. ? is a spirit, thus everything that we are talking about, the changing of one's name, has to do with what has happened on a spiritual level. If you were familiar with the word of ? , you would know that ? has made it a habit to change the name of His creatures, in order to reflect the spiritual reality of the situation at hand. For example ? changed Jacob's name to Israel (Gen 32.38) and He changed Simon's name to Peter (John 1:42). Did Jacob actually have a physical transformation? Or did Peter actually have a physical transformation? Of course not! It was a spiritual transformation that happened! Thus the change of name matched the new spiritual identity of the person.

    When Lucifer rebelled, His name no longer represented the spiritual reality of the situation! He was no longer the "shining one" but rather he was the "Satan" which means the "Adversary". He no longer shined purely, but rather he corrupted his brightness and became the prince of darkness. The name change is about a spiritual reality which fits the spiritual make-up of the creature. Amen.

    2. Again, ? didn't create imperfect or evil creatures. Everything that ? created was good. But because ? gave angels and man a will to choose, rebellion came into the creation and thus marred it. Evil came through the creation, not through the creator. There is no darkness in ? my friend. He can't be charged with folly. You can't blame the creator for the actions of the creation, not when the creation has been given the freedom of choice. That's like trying to blame Hitlers parents for the holocaust! Did Hitlers parents know that he would commit one of the greatest atrocities in human history? Of course not! Were they responsible for his actions in carrying out the atrocities? Of course not! Every individual soul is responsible for his or her own actions! Stop trying to place the blame on everybody else my friend. Strap up your boots, tighten your belt up, and look at the man in the mirror for once. The problem is staring back at you when you do it. You need to get out of denial and own up to your own faults. After you get out of denial, the healing process will soon follow! Give your life to Christ my friend and be forgiven of your sins! Amen.

    3. I was illustrating a scripture verse in order to let you understand that your thoughts are not Gods thoughts.

    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

    Whatever thoughts you have about how ? should be, or how He should run the universe, or how He should set the course of events in history are so far removed from His thoughts that it can't even be compared. ? sees all, knows all, and understands all possible outcomes, possibilities, and scenarios. Thus, the best possible outcome was already predetermined before ? created anything. So again, it is futile to resist His will. What your doing is comparable to standing on a train track with a trillion ton locomotive barreling down the track at 200+ mph, expecting that your body weight, power, and might will be able to derail the train from reaching it's final destination. It's absolutely laughable my friend. We are no match for ? ! You can not resist His will and expect to be on the winning side of the equation when all is said and done! Your either going to get on the train and agree that ? is right or your going to be defiant and continue to stand on the tracks believing that ? is wrong. Either way the train of ? will arrive at it's destination with you or without you. You have the freedom of choice to choose which way you want to arrive at the conclusion;

    A) as a passenger in agreement with His plan, purpose, and ways.

    or

    B) As a fool who was destroyed because he/she thought they could outwit, outmaneuver, and out finagle the King of the Universe.

    You alone will bear the repercussions of which ever decision you decide to make. Amen.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2013
    Oceanic wrote: »
    1. A name is given to represent something in words but it does not change the physical makeup of something. A pear doesn't become a strawberry if you name it that. It becomes even more difficult to reconcile when you believe in eternal souls. The soul that ? created as Lucifer is exactly the same soul as satan. I'm sure you believe that you are the same soul now as you were when you were "lost".

    2. The difference between ? and his creation.. and parents and their children.. is that ? is an omni benevolent and perfect being. Parents are not. Parents are, by nature, imperfect.. relatively speaking. They give birth to imperfect children. ? on the other hand, is supposedly perfect and all good. There is not a drop of imperfection or evil within him. It is not logical for him to create evil or imperfect creatures.

    3. I didn't say anything about the vastness of space but I simply do not believe anything else you've said. It'd not that I'm choosing to rise against ? . It would be ridiculous for me to put effort into rebelling against someone I do not believe exists. I'm only pointing out how irrational your theories are. I stand by what I said in my last post, point #3

    1. The name satan signifies a change, a change of the soul is a change of nature so it's not the same soul. The soul is not a physical thing the same rules do not apply to a soul that apply to a piece of fruit. There is also the difference between souls and spirits people sometimes use them interchangeably.

    2. ? made man perfect ? made angels perfect a function of that perfection is the ability to do evil with out that ability we would be imperfect as a sentient creatures.

    I don't think you have a very good understanding of the basic concepts behind the christian religion.
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll never die: Heaven won't take me and devil is afraid I'll take over.
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok.. I'll, again, ask you a question which you have yet to answer.

    If ? created my soul, am I the same soul whether I am following Christianity or not?

    Are you the same soul today in essence, not disposition, as you were when you were "lost"?
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    once you get reborn you become a new creature in gods eyes.

    2 corinthians 5:17
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm asking DoYou that question.

    But I'll answer your response. If you become something completely different or rather you are reborn in a way that completely changes the makeup of the soul, there is no eternal soul and the mind can be likened to such things as a string of physical phenomena that has no real and enduring existence.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    I'm asking DoYou that question.

    But I'll answer your response. If you become something completely different or rather you are reborn in a way that completely changes the makeup of the soul, there is no eternal soul and the mind can be likened to such things as a string of physical phenomena that has no real and enduring existence.

    The soul is eternal in that it always exist that does not mean that it is eternally the same. The mind is not the soul they are very similar but not the same thing.

    Matt 22: 37
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    Oceanic wrote: »
    I'm asking DoYou that question.

    But I'll answer your response. If you become something completely different or rather you are reborn in a way that completely changes the makeup of the soul, there is no eternal soul and the mind can be likened to such things as a string of physical phenomena that has no real and enduring existence.

    The soul is eternal in that it always exist that does not mean that it is eternally the same. The mind is not the soul they are very similar but not the same thing.

    Matt 22: 37

    So being that the soul always exists regardless of what changes it goes through, ? created satan by creating Lucifer. Lucifer and Satan are one in the same; its two names for the same soul. ? created Lucifer knowing good and well that he would rename him satan in the future.
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 Members Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satan was taken from the ? of Chaos from Set and was pronounced Set-hen. Set was a man who killed his brother was a King probably around 3500 B.C.

    Do I believe in the possibility of a creator, very highly.

    Now, do I believe in the bible as actual historical information, 20% and even that is shaky to say, but I believe these are myths and overblown and some taken from other religions and spirtual systems that were once in fact human things. For example, Odin is believed to be a King made into a ? . Same with other pharoahs and kings. Humans tend to make life bigger than what it is.
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Ok.. I'll, again, ask you a question which you have yet to answer.

    If ? created my soul, am I the same soul whether I am following Christianity or not?

    Are you the same soul today in essence, not disposition, as you were when you were "lost"?

    I've been born again my friend. My soul has been re-born! Now Christ lives in me and His righteousness has been credited to my account. Thus when I see ? , He will not see me, but Christ in me! Hallelujah!

    If you never been born-again your soul still has sin smeared on it. Thus when you see ? , He will see sin. Sin must be punished and because the sacrifice of Christ was refused, you must pay the penalty for sin yourself. ? is just my friend. Amen.
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven Members Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    Oceanic wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    Oceanic wrote: »
    I'm asking DoYou that question.

    But I'll answer your response. If you become something completely different or rather you are reborn in a way that completely changes the makeup of the soul, there is no eternal soul and the mind can be likened to such things as a string of physical phenomena that has no real and enduring existence.

    The soul is eternal in that it always exist that does not mean that it is eternally the same. The mind is not the soul they are very similar but not the same thing.

    Matt 22: 37

    So being that the soul always exists regardless of what changes it goes through, ? created satan by creating Lucifer. Lucifer and Satan are one in the same; its two names for the same soul. ? created Lucifer knowing good and well that he would rename him satan in the future.

    No. ? created Lucifer. Lucifer became Satan when he rebelled.

    Did ? know in advance that this would happen? Of course. ? knows all.

    But just because ? knew that Lucifer would rebel, doesn't nullify the responsibility that ? gave to all of His creative intelligences, which is a responsibility to obey what He says despite the free will He gave us.

    ? didn't create robots my friend. ? created beings that could understand what love is. Robots don't know what love is, they just do what they are programmed to do. ? has higher plans for His creative intelligences, thus He gave us a will to understand, feel, and become familiar with what love is all about. Hallelujah!

    And because ? is the greatest, He paid the ultimate cost and demonstrated true love by sending His Son to die for the sins of humanity!

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

    There is no higher love that what ? did for us my friend! ? walked the walk my friend, not only talked the talk! How can anybody be saved if they reject so great a love as Jesus Christ?
  • Bodhi
    Bodhi Members Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oceanic wrote: »
    Ok.. I'll, again, ask you a question which you have yet to answer.

    If ? created my soul, am I the same soul whether I am following Christianity or not?

    Are you the same soul today in essence, not disposition, as you were when you were "lost"?

    I've been born again my friend. My soul has been re-born! Now Christ lives in me and His righteousness has been credited to my account. Thus when I see ? , He will not see me, but Christ in me! Hallelujah!

    If you never been born-again your soul still has sin smeared on it. Thus when you see ? , He will see sin. Sin must be punished and because the sacrifice of Christ was refused, you must pay the penalty for sin yourself. ? is just my friend. Amen.

    In other words, you're the same soul. Being reborn in your case suggests that there is a fundamental essence that is enduring.