Onslaught vs Thanos
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Thank you! ^^^^^^^^ we have done this...Shuma is the same as level cthon....cthon is the strongest elder ? ...cthon gaea and ego are all elder Gods neither have done anything to suggest their above Odin.
Vishanti, Ego, cyttorak, cthon, Shuma gorath all the same level...no separation. No feats to show differentiation. Dormammu is a known Rival of the entire Vishanti what would suggest him a rival other than similar power -
Shuma conquers UNIVERSES. That's a stated fact. Every Universe in the Marvel Multiverse has an Eternity. That is also a fact. So it stands to reason that Shuma has usurped multiple Eternities. Where was it stated that Shuma was below Eternity. Post that please, and then tell me what the hell Shuma being below Eternity has to do with you acting like he's a weakling outside of his dimension and using Strange DEM to discredit him.
Your Abraxas example is bad to because Galactus is not like Eternity. Eternity is a mutiuniversal being, so every Eternity is connected. Galactus is not a multiuniversal being. Galactus from universe to universe isn't even necessarily the same person. So Abraxas killing a bunch of other Galactuses means nothing in regards to what he could do to the 616 Galactus.
You just don't want to face or accept facts. We just saw that it took characters like Blue Marvel and Photon to defeat a portion of him that was compared to a toenail, and even then they couldn't ? him. All they could do is prevent him from entering the realm. It's funny how you want to dismiss his one big feat, but then turn around an make the claims you do off of one defeat that didn't go anywhere near how you always describe it. -
Onslaught
Can you provide any proof or evidence that Shuma has fought any version of Eternity? You're adding things to his legacy that just hasn't been shown, nor stated. Where is it stated that Shuma is on par or above Eternity??The Lonious Monk wrote: »Shuma conquers UNIVERSES. That's a stated fact. Every Universe in the Marvel Multiverse has an Eternity. That is also a fact. So it stands to reason that Shuma has usurped multiple Eternities. Where was it stated that Shuma was below Eternity. Post that please, and then tell me what the hell Shuma being below Eternity has to do with you acting like he's a weakling outside of his dimension and using Strange DEM to discredit him.
actually it is a valid example since Galactus/Death/Eternity have a brother/sister/father/son/daughter/ relationship..the Abraxas saga showed that Galactus is a multiuniversal being, It just so happens that the 616 is the most poweful version.Your Abraxas example is bad to because Galactus is not like Eternity. Eternity is a mutiuniversal being, so every Eternity is connected. Galactus is not a multiuniversal being. Galactus from universe to universe isn't even necessarily the same person. So Abraxas killing a bunch of other Galactuses means nothing in regards to what he could do to the 616 Galactus.
well BM and Monica aren't anywhere near Shuma in power so of course they can't ? him. They did, however, prevent him from entering this dimension.You just don't want to face or accept facts. We just saw that it took characters like Blue Marvel and Photon to defeat a portion of him that was compared to a toenail, and even then they couldn't ? him.
what's his one big feat?All they could do is prevent him from entering the realm. It's funny how you want to dismiss his one big feat, but then turn around an make the claims you do off of one defeat that didn't go anywhere near how you always describe it.
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Ego is an elder ? ?
I thought he was a planet -
Shuma when he loses always gets banned from dimensions. Shuma is stated to be below Eternity by Strange on panel.
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Ego is an elder ? ?
I thought he was a planet
He is .... he isn't an elder ? ...I ? up...he is an elder of the universe but I always our him elder ? level because he hung with gal for a bit. And the most powerful elders are elder ? level I would say. -
I could go for days on how Dormammu and Shuma are even.
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I dont even wanna get in this argument, Dormmy is a flea to Shuma
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@bcotton5 please explain how that's accurate. They both have the same standing against ancient one, sorcerer supreme, and vishanti. How arr they in different leagues bruh
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I dont even wanna get in this argument, Dormmy is a flea to Shuma
A flea? Be real, explain this!
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Can you provide any proof or evidence that Shuma has fought any version of Eternity? You're adding things to his legacy that just hasn't been shown, nor stated. Where is it stated that Shuma is on par or above Eternity??
We've been through this before. Fact: Shuma has usurped multiple universes in the Marvel multiverse. Fact: Every universe in the Marvel multiverse has an aspect of Eternity. Fact: Eternity is the embodiment of the universe. When you put those together it speaks for itself. There is no way Shuma could take over a bunch of universes without coming into contact with the respective Eternities.actually it is a valid example since Galactus/Death/Eternity have a brother/sister/father/son/daughter/ relationship..the Abraxas saga showed that Galactus is a multiuniversal being, It just so happens that the 616 is the most poweful version.
Sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Galactus and Death/Eternity talk about each other in that way, but they aren't actually family members, and they aren't the same. Again, we've already seen Galactus in other universes and they have no connection to each other. Every Eternity is connected and congnizant of the others. A Galactus exists in every universe but Galactus is not a multiversal being in the same way as Eternity or the Living Tribunal.well BM and Monica aren't anywhere near Shuma in power so of course they can't ? him. They did, however, prevent him from entering this dimension.
That's the point. They are very powerful characters and couldn't even measure up to a "toenail's" worth of Shuma's power outside of his realm. That should tell you how much power he actually has.what's his one big feat?
We've already talked about it and you just dismiss it, so why ask? Besides that, he conquers universes. Think about all the powerhouses that are in every universe and you should understand any character has to be to do that.
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Ebony Maw even mentions how powerful Shuma really is in Mighty Avengers 3 when they stop him from manifesting in the Universe.
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OK what about the fact that vishanti stalemated him. VISHANTI states that Dormammu is their primary rivalry. Vishanti isnt above Galactus, Eternity, Death Oblivion, Infinity, none of that.
Even if you use your logic then eternity 616 is the strongest because all cosmic beings evolve when new universes are born. Except phoenix and LT because they are omniversal.
Shuma is Dormammu...level...he is elder ? at best. He isn't above cosmics. Let that ? go.
And your toenail analogy. Thor couldn't even fathom what was happening in a battle between Dormammu and Odin (one which Odin won...) pretty sure that would make him way below Odin. Pretty sure the whole avengers couldn't stop Odin from doing ? .
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evoljeanyes wrote: »OK what about the fact that vishanti stalemated him. VISHANTI states that Dormammu is their primary rivalry. Vishanti isnt above Galactus, Eternity, Death Oblivion, Infinity, none of that.
First of all, the Vishanti as a triumvirate stalemated Shuma on Earth. The three of them together are pretty damn powerful. So them managing to stalemate whatever portion of Shuma that had made it into the 616 universe is in no way a knock against Shuma. And them considering Dormammu as their primary rival is irrelevant.Even if you use your logic then eternity 616 is the strongest because all cosmic beings evolve when new universes are born. Except phoenix and LT because they are omniversal.
What? Each Eternity is the living embodiment of that particular universe. There is nothing suggesting any Eternity is more powerful than another. And what are you talking about when you say phoenix and LT are omniversal? Do you know what the term Omniverse means? It's the sum total of all multiverses. The Phoenix and LT are not omniversal. They are limited to the Marvel multiverse. You don't see any hint of them in the DC or Image multiverses. Now The One Above All is a different story since he was teased to exist in the DC multiverse and shares some connection to the Presence who is his DC counterpart. Now it's possible that Marvel has multiple multiverses under its name. The Phoenix is also not multiversal. Just like with Galactus, there are different Phoenixes in every universe. Again, multiversal beings simultaneously exist in multiple universes. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this. There is a difference between a being having different versions of itself existing in different universes and a being existing simultaneously in different universes.Shuma is Dormammu...level...he is elder ? at best. He isn't above cosmics. Let that ? go.
Just because you say this over and over again doesn't make it true.And your toenail analogy. Thor couldn't even fathom what was happening in a battle between Dormammu and Odin (one which Odin won...) pretty sure that would make him way below Odin. Pretty sure the whole avengers couldn't stop Odin from doing ? .
First it's not my analogy, it was what was stated in the comic. Second, I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. What does Thor not being able to understand what was happening in a fight between Dormammu and Odin have to do with anything? And assuming that you're right and the Avengers would be powerless against Odin, what does that have to do with Shuma? -
You are picking and choosing what you want to fit. Thor not being able to fathom their battle means he is lightyears below Odin the avengers being nothing to Odin means their is nothing to suggest Odin is below shuma with your toenail hyperbole.
Shuma and Dormammu have almost identical feats. Ancient one, eternity, vishanti. Dormammu being their rival suggests similar power levels and you know it does.
It is suggested that each new universe deems the cosmics more advanced than the prior I will fig it up. My bad I misspoke. There is only one phoenix and LT within the multiverse. All others are rebooted -
evoljeanyes wrote: »You are picking and choosing what you want to fit. Thor not being able to fathom their battle means he is lightyears below Odin the avengers being nothing to Odin means their is nothing to suggest Odin is below shuma with your toenail hyperbole.
I'm not picking or choosing anything. There simply is no logical flow to the arguments you're making. Thor not being able to comprehend the fight that went on between Odin and Dormammu means absolutely nothing in regards to what happened between the Mighty Avengers and Shuma. Basically, your comparison is like me saying "Since I like chicken, there is nothing that suggests that those guys over there don't like turkey." lol WTF kinda argument is that?Shuma and Dormammu have almost identical feats. Ancient one, eternity, vishanti. Dormammu being their rival suggests similar power levels and you know it does.
Being someone's rival simply suggests that the two parties are often at odds. Lex Luthor is one of Superman's greatest rivals. Are you going to suggest that Lex is of a similar power level to Superman? The Vishanti have only encountered Shuma once. Why would they consider him a rival?It is suggested that each new universe deems the cosmics more advanced than the prior I will fig it up. My bad I misspoke. There is only one phoenix and LT within the multiverse. All others are rebooted
You're saying that with each incarnation of a particular universe, the Cosmic advance. That might be possible, but that says nothing at all about how the Cosmics in the 615 Universe compare to the Cosmics in the 616 Universe. -
Onslaughtevoljeanyes wrote: »
nah, elder gods are extremely powerful. I don't think there are any elders of the universe on their level. -
OnslaughtI dont even wanna get in this argument, Dormmy is a flea to Shuma
and this is based on what exactly? -
OnslaughtThe Lonious Monk wrote: »Can you provide any proof or evidence that Shuma has fought any version of Eternity? You're adding things to his legacy that just hasn't been shown, nor stated. Where is it stated that Shuma is on par or above Eternity??We've been through this before. Fact: Shuma has usurped multiple universes in the Marvel multiverse. Fact: Every universe in the Marvel multiverse has an aspect of Eternity. Fact: Eternity is the embodiment of the universe. When you put those together it speaks for itself. There is no way Shuma could take over a bunch of universes without coming into contact with the respective Eternities.
Yes, we have been through this before and you've yet to provide any evidence to support your claim. What are these facts you keep speaking of? Where has it been shown or stated that Shuma has fought with any version of Eternity? You know, feats like that are always mentioned in the books. For all you know, Eternity allowed Shuma to do his dirt the same way he allows Thanos and others to go off on their conquests..
actually it is a valid example since Galactus/Death/Eternity have a brother/sister/father/son/daughter/ relationship..the Abraxas saga showed that Galactus is a multiuniversal being, It just so happens that the 616 is the most poweful version.Sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Galactus and Death/Eternity talk about each other in that way, but they aren't actually family members, and they aren't the same. Again, we've already seen Galactus in other universes and they have no connection to each other. Every Eternity is connected and congnizant of the others. A Galactus exists in every universe but Galactus is not a multiversal being in the same way as Eternity or the Living Tribunal.
what? hahaha are you serious? Do you know the history of Galactus as he relates to Death and Eternity? I'm sure you don't based on your fist sentence..You're calling someone wrong when you don't even know the basics behind Galactus..You do realize that Galactus sole purpose is to eventually become Eternity right? Death/Eternity/Galactus has the beforementioned relationship as stated by Marvel, but I guess they're flat out wrong too..well BM and Monica aren't anywhere near Shuma in power so of course they can't ? him. They did, however, prevent him from entering this dimension.That's the point. They are very powerful characters and couldn't even measure up to a "toenail's" worth of Shuma's power outside of his realm. That should tell you how much power he actually has.
that's not really saying anything thoigh, because these two wouldn't be able to do anything to Thanos either.what's his one big feat?We've already talked about it and you just dismiss it, so why ask? Besides that, he conquers universes. Think about all the powerhouses that are in every universe and you should understand any character has to be to do that.
I've dismissed it? Are you still making things up? You continue to make up things to prove some kind of point, instead of you know, just using evidence provided in the books. He conquered universes..great..what were the circumstances behind conquering these universes? -
OnslaughtThe Lonious Monk wrote: »evoljeanyes wrote: »OK what about the fact that vishanti stalemated him. VISHANTI states that Dormammu is their primary rivalry. Vishanti isnt above Galactus, Eternity, Death Oblivion, Infinity, none of that.
First of all, the Vishanti as a triumvirate stalemated Shuma on Earth. The three of them together are pretty damn powerful. So them managing to stalemate whatever portion of Shuma that had made it into the 616 universe is in no way a knock against Shuma. And them considering Dormammu as their primary rival is irrelevant.
This is my point right here..This is your big feat that you keep harping on and yet you don't even know the details behind the fight..You can't say what happened when Shuma met up with the Vishanti, only that they fought..Even if you use your logic then eternity 616 is the strongest because all cosmic beings evolve when new universes are born. Except phoenix and LT because they are omniversal.What? Each Eternity is the living embodiment of that particular universe. There is nothing suggesting any Eternity is more powerful than another. And what are you talking about when you say phoenix and LT are omniversal? Do you know what the term Omniverse means? It's the sum total of all multiverses. The Phoenix and LT are not omniversal. They are limited to the Marvel multiverse. You don't see any hint of them in the DC or Image multiverses. Now The One Above All is a different story since he was teased to exist in the DC multiverse and shares some connection to the Presence who is his DC counterpart. Now it's possible that Marvel has multiple multiverses under its name. The Phoenix is also not multiversal. Just like with Galactus, there are different Phoenixes in every universe. Again, multiversal beings simultaneously exist in multiple universes. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this. There is a difference between a being having different versions of itself existing in different universes and a being existing simultaneously in different universes.
so, even though Marvel released a story showing that Galactus is a multiversal being, in your mind that means he's not..gotcha!Shuma is Dormammu...level...he is elder ? at best. He isn't above cosmics. Let that ? go.
the same can be said about Shuma fighting multiple Eternities too huh?Just because you say this over and over again doesn't make it true.And your toenail analogy. Thor couldn't even fathom what was happening in a battle between Dormammu and Odin (one which Odin won...) pretty sure that would make him way below Odin. Pretty sure the whole avengers couldn't stop Odin from doing ? .
oh, now we're going to use what's stated in the comic?First it's not my analogy, it was what was stated in the comic.
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OnslaughtMaybe one of these days Marvel will delve more into Shuma and others like they planned on doing years ago when they teased a magical arc similar to annihilation, however let's not get carried away. Shuma gets most of his props because he was an homage to the H.P. Lovecraft angled monsters. He may be that dude, but he hasn't been shown to be that dude in comparison to the other "dudes" in Marvel. Even here, he made a throwaway appearance in a tie in issue, not the main title. On the other hand, there are on paper examples of Dormammu actually fighting Eternity and not just some assumption that he beat "multiple Eternities" when that has never been shown or stated. If it has, then I will gladly concede I was wrong
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what? hahaha are you serious? Do you know the history of Galactus as he relates to Death and Eternity? I'm sure you don't based on your fist sentence..You're calling someone wrong when you don't even know the basics behind Galactus..You do realize that Galactus sole purpose is to eventually become Eternity right? Death/Eternity/Galactus has the beforementioned relationship as stated by Marvel, but I guess they're flat out wrong too..
Considering Galactus is one of my favorite characters, yeah I know the history. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Nowhere has it been stated that Galactus is supposed to become the new Eternity. It's never been definitively stated what Galactus end purpose is. The strongest hints are that he's the one that's supposed end the Universe. And I never said that Galactus doesn't refer to Eternity or Death in those terms, but they are not family in the same way that you might be with your father or mother. It's a completely different type of relationship. Who the ? really think biological familial terms really apply to a bunch of Celestial and Abstract entities? Come on man.that's not really saying anything thoigh, because these two wouldn't be able to do anything to Thanos either.
They might lose to Thanos, but they could fight him. The most they could do with Shuma, even a tiny portion of it's power, is try to prevent it from gaining a foothold in the universe.I've dismissed it? Are you still making things up? You continue to make up things to prove some kind of point, instead of you know, just using evidence provided in the books. He conquered universes..great..what were the circumstances behind conquering these universes?
My bad. I honestly got you mixed up with evoljean. Because we always point out that when Strange was channeling Shuma, Shuma's presence alone was enough to to start ? reality and destroying ? on a cosmic scale. He always handwaves that and dismisses it. Aside from that, what do I make up? Why do I have to provide the circumstances behind him conquering universes? If the stories he's been in point that out as a testament to his power and Marvel's official database points that out as a testament to his power, how am I wrong or "making things up" when I point it out as fact. Again, just because you don't want something to be true doesn't mean it's not true. -
This is my point right here..This is your big feat that you keep harping on and yet you don't even know the details behind the fight..You can't say what happened when Shuma met up with the Vishanti, only that they fought..
What the ? are you talking about? When have I ever harped on the fight between Shuma and the Vishanti? I never even brought that up, evol did. I was just responding to what he said about it.so, even though Marvel released a story showing that Galactus is a multiversal being, in your mind that means he's not..gotcha!
When did Marvel release a story showing that Galactus is a multiversal being? Please show me. We've seen stories in other universes. In the Paradise X universe Galactus is Franklin Richards. In the Ultimate Universe, the Gah Lak Tus swarm is the analog for Galactus. In the original universe that the Marvel Zombies came from, Galactus was a flesh and blood creature that was eaten by the zombies. Abraxas killed multiple Galactuses. How did that affect 616 Galactus? It didn't. He didn't even show that he was aware of their deaths. That's because he's not a multiversal being. You're getting the fact that every universe has a Galactus confused with Galactus being a multiversal being. That's two different things. Every Marvel universe has a version of Wolverine. Are you now going to argue that Wolverine is multiversal too?the same can be said about Shuma fighting multiple Eternities too huh?
Hey, show me where I'm wrong. I've explained the logic between why I've said that Shuma has to have usurped versions of Eternity before. Provide some kind of logical argument against what I've said or shut the ? up about it. Doing the internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalala" isn't accomplishing ? .oh, now we're going to use what's stated in the comic?
What are you talking about? Regarding this issue we've always been talking about what's in the comic. The only supposition I've ever used was regarding Shuma's possible encounters with alternate Eternities and I've always been open about the inductive nature of that reasoning. You're just incapable of actually providing a good counterargument so you resort making stupid claims and making pointless statements. -
OnslaughtJust gonna put out there, that I have no idea what Shuma did in the last arc but a toenail to a human body in volume is anywhere form 1/8.9 billionth of your power to 1/13 billionth of your power. So you can magnify that showing by a lot if that line is to be taken seriously.
Also it's very hard to quantify the size of a toenail but...yeah. That's what it'd amount to. -
Not all dimensions have Eternity. Only alternate (divergent) universes of 616 feature the abstracts we all know. Dimensions that exist within timelines (for instance, each "what if" will have it's own Dormammu, despite him owning many dimensions), will all be tied to one single abstract set, so in this aspect, we need to distinguish that although each dimension may be a universe, it is not an "earth", i.e. earth-616, earth-4082, etc.
Hence why LT nor any other abstract ran up when Jim Jasper's had all his warping going on.
Strange states Eternity is the most powerful mystic and you can tell from his fight with Shuma (thinking he could win) and eternity knowing he would lose before is started that he was correct.
Dormammu runs thousands of dimensions just as Shuma does. So, chill with that hyperbole. I like you the lonious. You're knowledgeable. I have respect. I stayed to argue because you're a wise cat. But this time you're wrong. The Ancient One and Strange fear Dormammu more.
Also the evolved abstracts in each universe story is in x men forever...phoenix conducts the process.
