JR on lack of heels in wrestling. Agree or disagree?
jono
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Real or fake, I agree.
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their real. I follow him
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idk how i feel about his last statement about tweeners not drawing a dime the wyatts and shield are tweeners and 2 of the best things going for wwe
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I don't think hes talking about characters that are just positioned opposite a face, this is how the Wyatts are positioned and they pander to the crowd too much. I let them slide because they are doing a cult gimmick so getting people to follow them and think they are cool actually helps them.
I agree with his comments though. If you want heels to have heat you can't worry about whether they sell merch and ? like that. -
The ? is the Fans boo the hell out the Faces and cheer the Heels so the hells become tweeners and end up going good for a while
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which is why HHH and pal heyman are the best heels in the game right now
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dalyricalbandit wrote: »The ? is the Fans boo the hell out the Faces and cheer the Heels so the hells become tweeners and end up going good for a while
John Cena is understandable. Fans would cheer ? if he were to beat Cena.
And let me reiterate, if it wasn't for the internet there would be more hated heels in wrestling today.
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I don't like the term "tweener" myself. That's not a justifiable position.
A heel or face may be indiscriminate in who they attack and why (as Austin & Undertaker have done) but they have an alignment. -
Coming from him, you gotta agree. A lot of these wrestlers I think wanna be that anti-hero type like Austin. And if they are a heel, then they're corny as hell.
Current heels I like right now is Wyatt Family and Evolution. But even Wyatt Family walk that line of anti-hero. Shield also I felt was a good addition when they were heels.
They need to bring Karma back and just annihilate the women's division. Karma vs Tamania (whateva her name is) would be good. -
shield were goat heel status before the slow anti hero face turn......
if ambrose give shout outs to the city they in though, i might throw up -
I agree.which is why HHH and pal heyman are the best heels in the game right now
Chuch! -
I listened to his podcast with Jake Roberts and they talked about this then too.
The kind of psychology that existed in old school wrestling is long gone. I don't agree that JR is right about bringing all that stuff back because the game has evolved but heels actually cheating, and being ? bad guys...he is spot on. -
I don't agree with cheering a heel. The heel is out there to get booed it is his job. I think it's kinda disrespectful sometimes. I grew up liking a lot of heels but of course if I was ever at a live event I booed them. That's what they want.
It's why I was like "???" when people were getting mad at Magnus for being a ? paper champion. lol that's what he was supposed to do. Where they dropped the ball with that is not having Joe go over him in the end for the world title. -
HHH understands it. That's why the promo video about him a few weeks ago was so epic, him "burying" booker t, y2j, rvd, etc. And heyman when he was epic on the mic on that raw in Chicago and the raw after mania, they just understand it better than others
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I don't agree with cheering a heel. The heel is out there to get booed it is his job. I think it's kinda disrespectful sometimes. I grew up liking a lot of heels but of course if I was ever at a live event I booed them. That's what they want.
It's why I was like "???" when people were getting mad at Magnus for being a ? paper champion. lol that's what he was supposed to do. Where they dropped the ball with that is not having Joe go over him in the end for the world title.
Cheering heels happens. It's pretty much unavoidable even if they are great at their job. I don't think people should do it as a habit though, that's kind of how it is today...especially with the IWC screaming that everybody should be a heel.
As far as Magnus goes I think here is where we should discuss the evolution of being a heel. Cheating, run-ins sure 30 years ago that booking would have been fine, if not expected.
But since the turn of the century the game has changed, people don't want to pay to see a match with a ? finish, it's very different from then. The knowledge of the business by the fans, their expectations and the amount of wrestling on TV are all much higher.
This is where I disagree with JR, he was talking about (on his podcast with Jake) about 30 years ago Flair would wrestle local guys to 60 minute draws... that's not gonna fly today. 20 years ago in the AE there used to be 15 run-ins In a match, that won't fly today either.
The fans want finishes not DQs, draws or 1,000 run-ins. The mentality of the crowd is different. People no longer think "Damn, [good guy] will get him next time" they think "man...a DQ/run-in? ? this ? they wasted my money".
You have to evolve. HHH was ahead of the curve in that regard because people hated him because he always won, sometimes he cheated or there were run-ins (key: sometimes) but there were times where he just plain won the match.
Getting beat is good for the face and it gets fans behind him even more which is the goal.
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i agree with needing more rule breaking/cheating heels. and i see what he means about how its seems like ? just wanna be cool, its crazy that the heels that get the most heat are non full time wrestlers, or non wrestlers at all like heyman, hhh, and damn vickie guerrero. they got a heel type guy in bad news barrett but lately the have him and some of the other potential heels actually pandering to the crowd
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For YEARS now non wrestlers been getting more heat than in ring guys.
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i also feel like some heels just end up becoming tweeners because of their in-ring or character style just ends up having majority of the crowd gravitate towards them for some reason, i see that as kind of a gift and a curse, thats what i feel happened with dolph ziggler and whats happening with cesaro. but those two werent the strongest on the mic and werent really doing "heelish" ? . i think the shield did a good job as heels because even as the crowd was showing appreciation, they still did heel type ? and got heat at times. and also the booking of some of wwe's potential heels has been turrible, barrett only gettin pushed now cuz he did his thang at the hof, sandow has potential and was gettin over, until they took mitb off him and sent him to oblivion, and what they did with the booking of ryback whether he was face or heel doesnt een need to be spoken on..
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The booking of heels is the whole problem here. They aren't booked strong at all anymore.
I remember HHH saying years ago that the WWE is very "babyface driven" but it's never been as much as it is now. There are literally no strong heels left that wrestle every week. WWE turns everyone face even if they have too many faces.
TNA hasn't been very babyface heavy in its history and they have the same problem right now. The need Ray more as a heel right now than they ever have before because he was the only strong heel in the company. The only other really good option for a strong heel is Roode but he not in the title picture.
The lack of strong heels ? their babyfaces. Makes no sense to me to have flaccid heels but want strong babyfaces.
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It also shows a significant lack of forethought, especially on the E's part. You got a red-hot new face champion and no hot or even mildly hot heel for him to work with. All they have is a reheated Kane feud.
They just doing too much with these multiple men stables. Why not have Luke Harper wrestle for the title or Bray Wyatt and have the other wrestle Cena in the cage? That's an obvious move.
The Wyatts are somewhat hot, even though Bray lost to Cena, why not use that to have Harper challenge for the belt? Who cares if we know he won't win,..we know Kane ain't winning, or why not Harper AND Rowan versus Bryan for the title?
Damn, there's no point for 3 guys to be tied up in Cena's cage match. You could have had the two interfere In the cage and have Cena interfere in the triple threat...but noooooooo. -
The last character (IMO) who got legitimate heel heat was Muhammad Hassan.
UPN ? that up. -
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Edge and Randy Orton were the last real legitimate heels
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The WWE likes it's faces to rarely look vulnerable. The heels do cheat the babyface's always overcome the cheating and win. IE last Mondays Cena vs Wyatt's match.
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Edge and Randy Orton were the last real legitimate heels
CM Punk with paul heyman
