Did Italians originate the mafia??
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well, it's not like the 'Ndrangheta aren't Italian in origin, right?
Yeah, but doesn't the American Italian Mafia come from the Sicilian Mafia, which is different from the 'Ndrangheta?and does this mean we're overlooking the Camorra (and maybe the SCU, who i think literally no one likes to throw in there)?
I never heard of the Camorra and the SCU, so I looked up both. Never knew that they were big like that but seems like most of their power is outside of the U.S.really, i think you're going to find that "most powerful" probably depends on specifically what region/type of crimes you're talking about.
Yeah. -
essentially, yes, but in all these cases, we're still talking about multinational crime syndicates of Italian originYeah, but doesn't the American Italian Mafia come from the Sicilian Mafia, which is different from the 'Ndrangheta?
the SCU is legitimately a tier below, but the Camorra is big and powerful, albeit in a different way because of their structural differencesI never heard of the Camorra and the SCU, so I looked up both. Never knew that they were big like that but seems like most of their power is outside of the U.S. -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...
I would have say that Meyer Lansky is probably the greatest gangster in the history of organized crime, (with strong arguments being made for Arnold Rothstein, Lucky Luciano, and Carlo Gambino) If I'm not mistaken Lansky every did any pen time either, (state or feds.)
You seem to be well versed in the history of the mob and this is something I've wondered. Why is the Genovese Crime Family named after Vito Genovese and not Luciano as for the the other families, (E.g. the Gambinos being named after Carlo Gambino and not Albert Anastasia. I think it was Anastasia who formed what is now known as the Gambino Crime Family,) Or are the families named after who was ever boss at the time the Feds decided to put a name to them?
I'm going by memory here, might have to double check....
Vito was one of the original guys who founded the Five Families ...so that why it was in his name. Let's me get the link and brief history on founders of the 5, and who became who under which family. Anastasia didn't formed the Gambino...Anastasia was under one of the 5, and once Gambino took his spot, they made it in his name because Gambino was literally a "boss of bosses". He wasn't to be ? with.
Edited -- while Vito was one of the original guys...he was the original underboss in Lucky's family first, partly because Vito was dangerous as a young turk among young turks. When Lucky went away, Vito took over the family and was the longest tenure boss, hence the family having his name
Lucky Luciano,Frank Costello (who rule when Vito had to go on the run for a murder charge right after Lucky was deported), Vito Genovese, Vincent "The Chin" Gigante.......basically that order
No. Once the castallamare war ended with the death of Joe the boss masseria, Salvatore Maranzano took over everything and declared himself capo de tutti cappi. He was the one that made the 5 family system. The original five families were headed by Lucky Luciano, Vincent Magano, Joe Profaci, Gaetano Galiano and Joe Bonanno. Afterwards Maranzano pout a hit on Luciano but Luciano got to him first and after Maranzano's the commission was formes. By the time the sSenate committee hearings began in 1957 in which Joe Valachi testified some of these men were no longer in their respective positions. The chart that was presented at the committee hearings had the names of the names of the men who were the boss of each family and it just stuck through history. Luciano's family became Genovese. Profaci's family became Columbo. Gugliano's family became Lucchese. Mangano's family became the Gambino family. The only name to remain the same was the Bonanno family because by the time the Senate hearings started Joe Bonanno was still the boss. -
well, it's not like the 'Ndrangheta aren't Italian in origin, right?
Yeah, but doesn't the American Italian Mafia come from the Sicilian Mafia, which is different from the 'Ndrangheta?and does this mean we're overlooking the Camorra (and maybe the SCU, who i think literally no one likes to throw in there)?
I never heard of the Camorra and the SCU, so I looked up both. Never knew that they were big like that but seems like most of their power is outside of the U.S.really, i think you're going to find that "most powerful" probably depends on specifically what region/type of crimes you're talking about.
Yeah.
If you wanna learn about the Cammora, get a book called American Mafia by Thomas Reppetto. It's a comprehensive history of the American mafia. -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Ndrangheta is different.............Silician , I believe and Sicilians are something else, they are given an wide berth for a reason. Even the American Mafia were scared of Sicilians.
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Not the Bonnano family. They openly sold drugs and the other families knew it. In fact the mafia was involved in selling drugs as early as the 1940s. Also, the bosses didn't give a Damn if they're soldiers sold drugs or not. Al long as they came with the envelope nobody cared. They never asked where the money came from. Basically it was go ahead and do it but don't get caught. -
...the American Mafia is the organized crime that traces its lineage to Sicily. 'Ndrangheta is Calabrese, Camorria is Campanian, SCU is Apulian. i mean, there's connections and these are all southern Italians ... but Calabria isn't Sicily and Sicily isn't Calabria.FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Ndrangheta is different.............Silician , I believe and Sicilians are something else, they are given an wide berth for a reason. Even the American Mafia were scared of Sicilians.
drug dealing is also happening a lot earlier than you seem to think.
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themadlionsfan wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Not the Bonnano family. They openly sold drugs and the other families knew it. In fact the mafia was involved in selling drugs as early as the 1940s. Also, the bosses didn't give a Damn if they're soldiers sold drugs or not. Al long as they came with the envelope nobody cared. They never asked whewsre the money came from. Basically it was go ahead and do it but don't get caught.
Right but Gambino actually was strict about that ? , that why the "go ahead and don't get caught" really didn't take hold until the "Pope" Paul C. took over....only problem was Paul was mad mad greedy as an boss, which is why that made things tense between him and Gotti...and when Gotti almost got caught on that drug charge (keep in mind Paul was banning the family from doing so yet he made tons of money doing the exact same ? )...that along with Paul's underboss death (the underboss kept the peace from the warring camps within the family) ...marked Paul C. out ....Gotti pretty much wanted to end Paul C and unbanned the drug trade.
As for the Bonnano aka the "Banana" family...they (the boss and his son) eventually ran out to hide to Arizona..and by the time they came back, that family was in disarry.
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...the American Mafia is the organized crime that traces its lineage to Sicily. 'Ndrangheta is Calabrese, Camorria is Campanian, SCU is Apulian. i mean, there's connections and these are all southern Italians ... but Calabria isn't Sicily and Sicily isn't Calabria.FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Ndrangheta is different.............Silician , I believe and Sicilians are something else, they are given an wide berth for a reason. Even the American Mafia were scared of Sicilians.
drug dealing is also happening a lot earlier than you seem to think.
Reread my post on Ndrangheta...I said "I believe" Ndrangheta was Sicilian, but isn't an 100% "I'm sure" statement. Went to check on Wiki and other links later, and it said that Ndrangheta is commonly linked to the Sicilian mafia even though they are Calabrese, so I'm not the only one who thought the two were linked.
Drug dealing always been around it just that they (the mafia in the states in general) were smart not to really flaunt the drug dealing cause they knew how much heat that would had brought.
It's kind of fun to argue back and forth on the mafia, I've forgotten some stuff I've read over the years, and I've read alot. So I'll admit I'll be wrong from time to time tho.
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »themadlionsfan wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Not the Bonnano family. They openly sold drugs and the other families knew it. In fact the mafia was involved in selling drugs as early as the 1940s. Also, the bosses didn't give a Damn if they're soldiers sold drugs or not. Al long as they came with the envelope nobody cared. They never asked whewsre the money came from. Basically it was go ahead and do it but don't get caught.
Right but Gambino actually was strict about that ? , that why the "go ahead and don't get caught" really didn't take hold until the "Pope" Paul C. took over....only problem was Paul was mad mad greedy as an boss, which is why that made things tense between him and Gotti...and when Gotti almost got caught on that drug charge (keep in mind Paul was banning the family from doing so yet he made tons of money doing the exact same ? )...that along with Paul's underboss death (the underboss kept the peace from the warring camps within the family) ...marked Paul C. out ....Gotti pretty much wanted to end Paul C and unbanned the drug trade.
As for the Bonnano aka the "Banana" family...they (the boss and his son) eventually ran out to hide to Arizona..and by the time they came back, that family was in disarry.
Yeah true but Gotti wasn't the only one dealing drugs he was just the most well known. Also Joe Bonnano absolutely hated the name "Bannana". -
Maximus Rex wrote: »What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.[/b]
From what I've read, its what helped destroy the smaller Mafia families like Philadelphia's - the ethnic groups assimilated into America, gained wealth, and escaped the ghettos. They became "white". Their best and brightest minds didn't HAVE to be criminals to survive anymore, they could just become doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, politicians. Organized crime didn't have the talent pool anymore. The flip side of that is you have to increasingly scrape the bottom of the barrel for new recruits. So you wind up with a gang of stupid, disloyal, unintelligent fuckups too lazy for a real job.
Just think back to the Sopranos...how many YOUNG Italians did you ever see trying to get down w/ The Family? Like....Jackie Aprile Jr's ? Ziggy Sobotka ass and Christopher and that was pretty much IT. Tony's hopes for the future of the family were pinned on Chris, that was the absolute best he could do for an apprentice and heir, and dude was a unholy trainwreck and junkie. -
Swiffness! wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.[/b]
From what I've read, its what helped destroy the smaller Mafia families like Philadelphia's - the ethnic groups assimilated into America, gained wealth, and escaped the ghettos. They became "white". Their best and brightest minds didn't HAVE to be criminals to survive anymore, they could just become doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, politicians. Organized crime didn't have the talent pool anymore. The flip side of that is you have to increasingly scrape the bottom of the barrel for new recruits. So you wind up with a gang of stupid, disloyal, unintelligent fuckups too lazy for a real job.
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This is pretty much what happened. Except in the case of Philly. They are a still viable family but their downfall came because of the murder of Angelo Bruno. -
alright, but "commonly linked to the Sicilian mafia" isn't Sicilian. really, i'm giving you a hard time about the group that comes from Sicily being scared of Sicilians. it's whatever, it doesn't matter, it's the internet!FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Reread my post on Ndrangheta...I said "I believe" Ndrangheta was Sicilian, but isn't an 100% "I'm sure" statement. Went to check on Wiki and other links later, and it said that Ndrangheta is commonly linked to the Sicilian mafia even though they are Calabrese, so I'm not the only one who thought the two were linked.
counterpoint: that was actually a TV showSwiffness! wrote: »Just think back to the Sopranos...how many YOUNG Italians did you ever see trying to get down w/ The Family? Like....Jackie Aprile Jr's ? Ziggy Sobotka ass and Christopher and that was pretty much IT. Tony's hopes for the future of the family were pinned on Chris, that was the absolute best he could do for an apprentice and heir, and dude was a unholy trainwreck and junkie. -
@janklow which you think had the better foothold in America coexisting with the Costra Nostra: Sicilians, Calabrese or Camorra?
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The beginning of time.
This is basically what it comes down too. Since forever, there's always been group of people who scheme up to hustle together, legally and illegally. Women and men -
themadlionsfan wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Not the Bonnano family. They openly sold drugs and the other families knew it. In fact the mafia was involved in selling drugs as early as the 1940s. Also, the bosses didn't give a Damn if they're soldiers sold drugs or not. Al long as they came with the envelope nobody cared. They never asked where the money came from. Basically it was go ahead and do it but don't get caught.
Interesting, I've read contradictory stories on this subject. What you say makes sense though, considering the 1940s had hard economic times nationwide. Some Italian bosses really did hate drug dealing but many of them, if not most were killed off by their own soldiers for that -
kingblaze84 wrote: »themadlionsfan wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
It's depends on the time periods. In the 30s-70s, Costra Nostra was pretty much in power. They had their hands in politics, unions and trade in America.
RICO didn't deciamted the Costra Nostra until the 80s, but by then the cartels figure out how to bypass the mafia and go to the other ethnic gangs or street gangs ..also the Mafia was actually forbidden to go into the narc trade, but some did on the low but never really had the connections (the bosses did but not the soldiers and associates.)
Not the Bonnano family. They openly sold drugs and the other families knew it. In fact the mafia was involved in selling drugs as early as the 1940s. Also, the bosses didn't give a Damn if they're soldiers sold drugs or not. Al long as they came with the envelope nobody cared. They never asked where the money came from. Basically it was go ahead and do it but don't get caught.
Interesting, I've read contradictory stories on this subject. What you say makes sense though, considering the 1940s had hard economic times nationwide. Some Italian bosses really did hate drug dealing but many of them, if not most were killed off by their own soldiers for that
Yeah, it happened. Vito Genovese pushed hard to get in the drug trade. There were detractors like Frank Costello, but it had nothing to do with any type of morality or honor. It was more because of the sentencing. Just Google "the French connection" or "the pizza connection." -
Sicilians because the Mafia is basically Sicilian in origin. look at all the zips they brought over and had in the mix; take whatever random Mafia figure (okay, not Murray Humphreys) and see where they trace back their families.FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »@janklow which you think had the better foothold in America coexisting with the Costra Nostra: Sicilians, Calabrese or Camorra?
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Swiffness! wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.[/b]
From what I've read, its what helped destroy the smaller Mafia families like Philadelphia's - the ethnic groups assimilated into America, gained wealth, and escaped the ghettos. They became "white". Their best and brightest minds didn't HAVE to be criminals to survive anymore, they could just become doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, politicians. Organized crime didn't have the talent pool anymore. The flip side of that is you have to increasingly scrape the bottom of the barrel for new recruits. So you wind up with a gang of stupid, disloyal, unintelligent fuckups too lazy for a real job.
Just think back to the Sopranos...how many YOUNG Italians did you ever see trying to get down w/ The Family? Like....Jackie Aprile Jr's ? Ziggy Sobotka ass and Christopher and that was pretty much IT. Tony's hopes for the future of the family were pinned on Chris, that was the absolute best he could do for an apprentice and heir, and dude was a unholy trainwreck and junkie.
Excellent post -
The Italians clearly started the Mafia, but organised crime has probably been around since day 1...
It was partly to combat the corrupted police and handed out their own punishments etc and restore some kind or order...
