Your ? and His Illusion of choice.
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ThaChozenWun
Members Posts: 9,390
If one is all knowing - No Free Will
The Bible says ? knows the future. So - if ? knows the future, do we have free will?
For someone to know what is going to happen ahead of time, that leaves no free will to the person. If we are traveling on a road and hit a split, you would think "Okay, I have two options left or right", now you may think you have the free will to choose whatever side, but you don't. If you choose left, ? knew it already, if you choose right, ? knew it already. That isn't free will, that is simply being presented with one option and one illusion. If ? had already mapped out the direction you would take than the other was that, an illusion and only presented during the time so you would think you had a decision.
To make it easier to understand, ? has made a very long movie of life. Once that movie began to play, there is no more editing involved or shooting. It is done, completed, ? knows it from beginning to end. Therefore, it is on continuous play and what is made will play through.
What this means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if ? already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then ? would have been wrong about knowing we were going to chose A, and ? can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.
Satan
? is supposed to have given free will so that we may choose between him and evil..... okay.
Everything that Satan does is 100% in accordance with ? 's will and Satan is doing ? 's work.
In the beginning ? created everything and had total knowledge of everything that was going to happen. ? , for example, had to have known that the Devil was going to become evil (how could ? not have known if he can see the future) and ? created him anyhow. One has to assume that ? did so because he wanted to create an evil Devil and that ? knowingly and deliberately created Satan and that everything that Satan has done is 100% in accordance with ? 's plan. One has to assume that or else ? doesn't know everything and if ? doesn't know everything - the Bible is wrong - and ? himself is wrong.
This is another free will problem. ? could see that we would be sinners and that so many would not live life exactly according to his book. But he still continued with his plan, now what type of free will is that? You are presented with two options again, to sin, or not to sin, yes that is the question! Or not, that is merely another illusion. If you become a sinner, ? knew that would happen, therefore the righteous path was another Illusion, because for you had been able to choose the path of the holy, it would have thrown ? 's cinematic action flick off course, in which case he would have been wrong again.
If ? can see his own future - then ? has no free will..
And - since ? can see into the future - then ? must know his own future - and therefore ? has no free will either. Since ? already knows what he's going to do - he can't change his mind, can he? I mean - if ? changed his mind then ? would be wrong. How could he not know that he was going to change his mind? So praying to ? for ? to do something has no effect because in praying to ? to do something - you are lobbying ? to make a different decision or TO influence him to decide something different than what he has already foreseen he is going to do. In praying you are wasting your time because ? already knew what he was going to do long before you were born and that is the only thing he's going to do. ? can not change his mind.? is totally bound by his own laws and has absolutely no free will to change anything in even the slightest way.
Being able to see into "the future" is the most limiting power of all because once you can see the future then you can see you're own future and you no longer have the illusion of choice. You become infinitely powerless by becoming infinitely powerful. Imagine if you will ? looking into the future and seeing himself remembering the moment that he looked into the future seeing himself remembering the past. Kind of like a tunnel of mirrors, enough to even give ? a headache. (Whoops - another limitation - ? can't get headaches! ? this having free will but not be able to do things) Of course - this assumes ? is subject to time and if he is not - if ? exists in all time simultaneously, then ? is as stagnant as a lump of concrete and has no power to change anything at all. hmmmmm .... maybe that's what ? depends on John Ashcroft and the Reverend Sun Myung Moon to do his work for him?
The Bible says ? knows the future. So - if ? knows the future, do we have free will?
For someone to know what is going to happen ahead of time, that leaves no free will to the person. If we are traveling on a road and hit a split, you would think "Okay, I have two options left or right", now you may think you have the free will to choose whatever side, but you don't. If you choose left, ? knew it already, if you choose right, ? knew it already. That isn't free will, that is simply being presented with one option and one illusion. If ? had already mapped out the direction you would take than the other was that, an illusion and only presented during the time so you would think you had a decision.
To make it easier to understand, ? has made a very long movie of life. Once that movie began to play, there is no more editing involved or shooting. It is done, completed, ? knows it from beginning to end. Therefore, it is on continuous play and what is made will play through.
What this means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if ? already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then ? would have been wrong about knowing we were going to chose A, and ? can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.
Satan
? is supposed to have given free will so that we may choose between him and evil..... okay.
Everything that Satan does is 100% in accordance with ? 's will and Satan is doing ? 's work.
In the beginning ? created everything and had total knowledge of everything that was going to happen. ? , for example, had to have known that the Devil was going to become evil (how could ? not have known if he can see the future) and ? created him anyhow. One has to assume that ? did so because he wanted to create an evil Devil and that ? knowingly and deliberately created Satan and that everything that Satan has done is 100% in accordance with ? 's plan. One has to assume that or else ? doesn't know everything and if ? doesn't know everything - the Bible is wrong - and ? himself is wrong.
This is another free will problem. ? could see that we would be sinners and that so many would not live life exactly according to his book. But he still continued with his plan, now what type of free will is that? You are presented with two options again, to sin, or not to sin, yes that is the question! Or not, that is merely another illusion. If you become a sinner, ? knew that would happen, therefore the righteous path was another Illusion, because for you had been able to choose the path of the holy, it would have thrown ? 's cinematic action flick off course, in which case he would have been wrong again.
If ? can see his own future - then ? has no free will..
And - since ? can see into the future - then ? must know his own future - and therefore ? has no free will either. Since ? already knows what he's going to do - he can't change his mind, can he? I mean - if ? changed his mind then ? would be wrong. How could he not know that he was going to change his mind? So praying to ? for ? to do something has no effect because in praying to ? to do something - you are lobbying ? to make a different decision or TO influence him to decide something different than what he has already foreseen he is going to do. In praying you are wasting your time because ? already knew what he was going to do long before you were born and that is the only thing he's going to do. ? can not change his mind.? is totally bound by his own laws and has absolutely no free will to change anything in even the slightest way.
Being able to see into "the future" is the most limiting power of all because once you can see the future then you can see you're own future and you no longer have the illusion of choice. You become infinitely powerless by becoming infinitely powerful. Imagine if you will ? looking into the future and seeing himself remembering the moment that he looked into the future seeing himself remembering the past. Kind of like a tunnel of mirrors, enough to even give ? a headache. (Whoops - another limitation - ? can't get headaches! ? this having free will but not be able to do things) Of course - this assumes ? is subject to time and if he is not - if ? exists in all time simultaneously, then ? is as stagnant as a lump of concrete and has no power to change anything at all. hmmmmm .... maybe that's what ? depends on John Ashcroft and the Reverend Sun Myung Moon to do his work for him?
Comments
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I see what you're saying, if I choose left then that was already known by ? so that was already paved for me to take anyway so it's not free will. All in all it is. ? knows everything, we do not. If I knew everything I was to do before I did it then that wouldn't be free will. But we aren't ? at all, we're nothing but sinful human beings. What we choose we have choices. Just because I don't choose another means it's an "illusion" whoever wrote this was trying to be smart.
What about those that choose, sin, then go to ? for salvation, then go back to sin, then go back to ? ? Couple of years in each one of sin and ? ? Is either one an "illusion" ??
How could it be? That person chose both, living each choice for a while. So where is the illusion?
To US, the PEOPLE we have OUR free will. Just because ? knows everything doesn't mean that WE don't have it.
Can you cite a verse that states we DON'T have free will? Because you do realize, if we didn't then we would all do ? 's WILL and WE WOULD ALL BE WORSHIPING HIM. WE WOULD BE DOING WHAT THE BIBLE PREACHES. BUT, we don't. Why? We have the choice of to do or not to do. -
I see what you're saying, if I choose left then that was already known by ? so that was already paved for me to take anyway so it's not free will. All in all it is. ? knows everything, we do not. If I knew everything I was to do before I did it then that wouldn't be free will. But we aren't ? at all, we're nothing but sinful human beings. What we choose we have choices. Just because I don't choose another means it's an "illusion" whoever wrote this was trying to be smart.
It's not trying to be smart, if you are confronted with two options, but are already told to go one way, that second choice wasn't a choice nor option but seriously there to give you the illusion of choice.What about those that choose, sin, then go to ? for salvation, then go back to sin, then go back to ? ? Couple of years in each one of sin and ? ? Is either one an "illusion" ??
You don't choose sin, if ? knew you were going to be a sinner 1,000 years before you were born, you were going to be a sinner. You not ending up a sinner would have gone against ? 's plan and therefore would have made the all knowing part a lie.How could it be? That person chose both, living each choice for a while. So where is the illusion?
Because it was ? 's plan, he forced them into trying both, gave the Illusion that they had a decision, and in essence forced them into the decision they made because if he hadn't, he would not have known what would happen and therefore isn't all knowing like I've been saying.To US, the PEOPLE we have OUR free will. Just because ? knows everything doesn't mean that WE don't have it.
No we don't I explained this in my opening post.Can you cite a verse that states we DON'T have free will? Because you do realize, if we didn't then we would all do ? 's WILL and WE WOULD ALL BE WORSHIPING HIM. WE WOULD BE DOING WHAT THE BIBLE PREACHES. BUT, we don't. Why? We have the choice of to do or not to do.
It's all through the place. When ? has to words like, Why, How, Where, Should, What, etc... he doesn't know. Your only argument could be he was being a ? and trying to get people to tattle tell on themselves but come on. It's just one of those things in the bible where one verse says one thing and another verse says something else but you Christians will find a way to distort things to make them seem correct. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »It's not trying to be smart, if you are confronted with two options, but are already told to go one way, that second choice wasn't a choice nor option but seriously there to give you the illusion of choice.
You don't choose sin, if ? knew you were going to be a sinner 1,000 years before you were born, you were going to be a sinner. You not ending up a sinner would have gone against ? 's plan and therefore would have made the all knowing part a lie.
Because it was ? 's plan, he forced them into trying both, gave the Illusion that they had a decision, and in essence forced them into the decision they made because if he hadn't, he would not have known what would happen and therefore isn't all knowing like I've been saying.
No we don't I explained this in my opening post.
It's all through the place. When ? has to words like, Why, How, Where, Should, What, etc... he doesn't know. Your only argument could be he was being a ? and trying to get people to tattle tell on themselves but come on. It's just one of those things in the bible where one verse says one thing and another verse says something else but you Christians will find a way to distort things to make them seem correct.
1. So I'm told where to go by ? ? You're told too? How, what I choose isn't based on ? but myself. ? 's voice doesn't come to my head and speak for my decision, ? doesn't appear to me and tell me what to do. So I make my own choice, it's upon my feeling, mind etc. It's free for me to take.
2. ? 's plan isn't for anyone to be a sinner, where do you get that? Throughout the bible He wants the word to be spread, for everyone to have salvation. John 3:16 says, FOR ? SO LOVED THE WORLD
He loves the WORLD, if you love someone you don't want them to do bad. You want them to do good. Although he knows the outcome to our lives, it's us that don't. We again, LEARN from them, GROW from them, CHANGE from them. It's simple. If a sinner dies a sinner, then it's upon that person. Not ? . ? doesn't interrupt our lives in that way, otherwise we would all again, be robots to ? and there would be no point for evil, bad, sin to exist.
3. So ? forces us to sin and forces us to choose Him? Again, you're wrong. ? doesn't FORCE anyone. As my verses in TX's thread show. He has given choice, ex, "If you should choose ? , then that is good and you shall be saved". "If you choose sin, then you shall perish". The key word is IF. IF = a possibility of choice. There cannot be free will without choice, that's what makes free will, FREE. We're free upon our OWN WILL.
4. How is ? being a "? "? Like I said, He comes to our level of emotion and thought. It's like when your child did something, you know what they did but you still ask "what did you do", why? Is that YOU being a "? " to your child? No. It's a question you ask so that when answered, you explain the situation, you teach a lesson about such a thing.
I don't distort anything, scripture isn't very hard to read and understand. I take what it says and interpret it to what it means. -
I think you're confusing All Knowing with All doing. If ? just knows, but didn't create the events himself, he's just all knowing. But if he did create the events, then yea he is all doing and free will is an illusion...
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I think you're confusing All Knowing with All doing. If ? just knows, but didn't create the events himself, he's just all knowing. But if he did create the events, then yea he is all doing and free will is an illusion...
But the point is, if he knows what your doing ahead of time, then you cannot choose the other when the time comes. -
1. So I'm told where to go by ? ? You're told too? How, what I choose isn't based on ? but myself. ? 's voice doesn't come to my head and speak for my decision, ? doesn't appear to me and tell me what to do. So I make my own choice, it's upon my feeling, mind etc. It's free for me to take.
In real life No. In the bible is 100% true and fact life yup that's what I'm saying. ? may not pop up from behind the curtain and say "Ayo!!!! You doing the wrong thing" but if he already knows whats happening before the time comes than that is whats going to happen because it is his will at that point making it happen because you cannot change what he already sees.
Creating Evil is a hell of a way to show that.2. ? 's plan isn't for anyone to be a sinner, where do you get that? Throughout the bible He wants the word to be spread, for everyone to have salvation. John 3:16 says, FOR ? SO LOVED THE WORLDHe loves the WORLD, if you love someone you don't want them to do bad. You want them to do good. Although he knows the outcome to our lives, it's us that don't. We again, LEARN from them, GROW from them, CHANGE from them. It's simple. If a sinner dies a sinner, then it's upon that person. Not ? . ? doesn't interrupt our lives in that way, otherwise we would all again, be robots to ? and there would be no point for evil, bad, sin to exist.
He doesn't love the world. No where does it say ? loves everyone and the world.3. So ? forces us to sin and forces us to choose Him? Again, you're wrong. ? doesn't FORCE anyone. As my verses in TX's thread show. He has given choice, ex, "If you should choose ? , then that is good and you shall be saved". "If you choose sin, then you shall perish". The key word is IF. IF = a possibility of choice. There cannot be free will without choice, that's what makes free will, FREE. We're free upon our OWN WILL.
Stop trying to work around the point. If ? already knows then that action is predetermined.4. How is ? being a "? "? Like I said, He comes to our level of emotion and thought. It's like when your child did something, you know what they did but you still ask "what did you do", why? Is that YOU being a "? " to your child? No. It's a question you ask so that when answered, you explain the situation, you teach a lesson about such a thing.
If my child does something I'm not going to show my power by saying "tell me what you did....." I know what they did so why waste time.I don't distort anything, scripture isn't very hard to read and understand. I take what it says and interpret it to what it means.
Apparently it is. You take ? all the time and construe it to fit your need. You take ? and decide what is literal and what isn't, you believe the book is 100% correct even after being told by mouth for a long time before being written down, and then still believe it to be 100% true after many interpretations of it. -
I agree with the t/s this is why I believe it is not possible for there to be a ? to answer our prayers create miracles etc... there are so many contradictions in religion and if you believe in it that means for the most part you have blind faith
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ThaChozenWun wrote: »Creating Evil is a hell of a way to show that.
Without good, can you know evil? Without evil, can you know good? If so, how? Either cannot exist without another.He doesn't love the world. No where does it say ? loves everyone and the world.
So you just want to skip over John 3:16?Stop trying to work around the point. If ? already knows then that action is predetermined.
What point? You try to give me a point and I show you a freedom of choice, it's point blank.If my child does something I'm not going to show my power by saying "tell me what you did....." I know what they did so why waste time.
HA! EVERY parent has asked, "WHAT DID YOU DO!!" more than ONCE. It's not about YOUR time but about TEACHING something.Apparently it is. You take ? all the time and construe it to fit your need. You take ? and decide what is literal and what isn't, you believe the book is 100% correct even after being told by mouth for a long time before being written down, and then still believe it to be 100% true after many interpretations of it.
It fits my need because I understand. You've tried and tried to show all the bad, but you don't fully read it or misunderstand it THEN you make it something it DOESN'T mean. I've done nothing to CHANGE the verse, I just explain it. If you have a hard time just read the ESV or something.
Yes, it is 100% true. This is ? 's word, ? 's book. -
A very good pdf file called fate & destiny that talks about the concepts in islam can be viewed with adobe or downloaded here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CE4QFjAL&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islambasics.com%2Findex.php%3Fact%3Ddownload%26BID%3D27&ei=zvxFTLL8FoPlnAe6u7GHBA&usg=AFQjCNFJKlXe4-cnVth6Et6H48e6OKvGng&sig2=KoHDAKKvLSJfXlCipw8NFg
We can discuss it further if anybody reads it
Salaam -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »But the point is, if he knows what your doing ahead of time, then you cannot choose the other when the time comes.
Why would you choose the other if it's not what you are going to choose though? lol It's not that you can't, it's that you're not going to. Remember, time is actually an illusion. All existence happens at the same time. Our brains just don't perceive it that way. -
Why would you choose the other if it's not what you are going to choose though? lol It's not that you can't, it's that you're not going to. Remember, time is actually an illusion. All existence happens at the same time. Our brains just don't perceive it that way.Revelation 4 is taking place in eternity outside of time and space as we know it. There is no clock in Revelation 4 and its not thousands of years in the future.
This conversation I am typing up here has already happened. Its fixed in eternity but relevant to you or me its a variable. I could have proceeded to tell you off or made a valid effort to answer your question but neither one of use really knows the outcome. However, ? already knows the outcome of this dialogue we are having because its "fixed" in eternity. Its already happened.
The scene in Revelation 4 is not future but has already "happened" and is fixed in eternity. We appear to be "waiting" to realize the actual throne room event but John experienced it and then jumped back into time and space writing about it as if it were a future event because we cant comprehend eternity.
As someone else wrote, about ? , time, future etc... -
In that context nobody has free will
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BiblicalAtheist wrote: »In that context nobody has free will
according to the bible did we really have free will from the start? -
TX_Made713 wrote: »according to the bible did we really have free will from the start?
We've always had it, imo it's just a matter of what perspective you have of "free will" whether it's free or not.
