Who is the best NBA Player to never win a ring?
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Charles BarkleyKeepOnPushing wrote: »Gave the edge with Malone over Barkley.
I compared their stats last night.
Almost identical with Malone having a slight edge on scoring & Charles with edge on rebounds.
Malone played more years too.
But i would have to think if Charles had Stockton with him his career stats coulda been even better -
Karl MaloneIf's are so hard to do though , you can do that with anything....it's just always best to call things what they are, both were two of the best PF's ever but i just feel like Malone edges him out as a player but barely , that's the only reason y i voted for him. it's damn near a toss up.
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Patrick EwingNash may be the best player to never play in the NBA Finals tho..
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Allen IversonBeing from Philadelphia, I will always say Allen Iverson is the best to never win it. No reason in the world a guy with his abilities only reached the Finals once.
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Charles BarkleyThe stats say Malone, but I'm gonna go with Chuck. Malone had three shots to win one.
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The Knicks ain't been respectable since he left.
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Karl Malonemikelewis2 wrote: »Being from Philadelphia, I will always say Allen Iverson is the best to never win it. No reason in the world a guy with his abilities only reached the Finals once.
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Allen IversonNobody seen Elgin Baylor so I can't comment on him or George Gervin (seen Iceman's highlights); other than that it was a toss up between Barkley and Iverson and the edge is to Iverson b/c Barkley had a great team with Houston and he had a good team with the 76ers and never won. Iverson was BY HIS SELF.
I saw Karl Malone and he was great but not a team leader and didn't play D, truthfully he and Reggie Miller were the same quality of player even though they obviously played different positions.
Nash wasn't ever getting a ring John Stockton either. Chris Paul was better than both those guys and he ain't getting no ring either -
Elgin BaylorI saw Karl Malone and he was great but not a team leader and didn't play D,
He made first team all-defense 3 times and second team once.
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Beard King, Karl Malone
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Charles BarkleyBarkley >> Malone and Iverson
Malone got the numbers but Stockton anchored that ship or at least deserves half the credit.
Iverson is just the most likable for alot of reasons.
But Barkley was more complete and amazing for his size. -
Elgin BaylorMalone the same as Reggie Miller?
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Reggie Miller
I was just looking at Reggie Miller vs New York on ESPN 30 for 30 that ? was soul snatching for us New Yorkers -
Elgin BaylorResults are kinda embarrassing how tilted they are toward modern players .
AI and Barkley (2 fan favorites) are not better all time players than Elgin Baylor -
Allen Iverson
DAmn O.G. you been at me since September of last year on this same topic when you wrote "wrong thread". I saw this when I went back to repost the reason why Iverson is BETTER than Barkley and you wrote "wrong thread" when I was talking about players with no rings.
Again, the numbers don't lie. Outside of rebounds Iverson had more an effect on the game before PER was invented, which I believe in PER somewhat and some of it is misleading when a franchise player is called on and pressured by his organization and team to take more risks than they would allow a regular player, but anyway here's the numbers on a conversation already had. Sidenote on the Malone issue: I don't care what awards Malone got on defense, that dude was not a defensive juggernaut threat when you looked at him play. I saw the dude, ? the award!
Old conversation:
Iverson vs Barkley (I know they play diff't positions)
Just to show how great Iverson was and which class he belongs to. He is in the class of people you would put above a Charles Barkley.
Just had another convo about Iverson. Said he was better than Barkley and folks erupted, saying he wasn't.
Can't put AI above Jordan, Kobe, Magic and some others but he damn sure was better than Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Mookie Blaylock, Stephen Curry, Tony Parker .
Todd MacCulloch was Iverson's second best player on the team he took to the finals(I would've said Eric Snow, but stats say this dude). That says everything.
Charles 1984-1996
Iverson 1996-2008
Iverson beats Charles in Points Per game for each year of his career (excluding his last return to 76ers)
Iverson beats Charles in Assists Per game each year of his career
Charles kills Iverson (and most in NBA) in rebounds, but Iverson does pretty well for a shooting guard of 6’0 for rebounds.
Iverson played more minutes per season than Charles
Iverson shot better free throws than Charles (Charles was known for being a good free throw shooter)
Iverson’s 3pt percentage is better than Charles
Charles shot a better FG% through his career
Iverson beat Charles in steals per game for career
Iverson committed less fouls throughout career than Charles
Turnovers were roughly the same, again considering Iverson handled the ball 10x as much as Charles this I will say Iverson in essence committed fewer turnovers.
*Iverson was rated the fifth-greatest NBA shooting guard of all time by ESPN in 2008.
*Iverson won Big East Defensive Player of the Year awards both years he played with Georgetown.
*Iverson is also 12th on the list of ALL TIME STEAL Leaders. As Kevin Durant (also pretty good) recently said about him being best pound for pound. -
Charles BarkleyIt's impossible for me to pick Elgin Baylor and George Gervin, I ain't never seen those dudes play and neither has the dudes picking them
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Charles BarkleyResults are kinda embarrassing how tilted they are toward modern players .
AI and Barkley (2 fan favorites) are not better all time players than Elgin BaylorChi-Town Bully wrote: »It's impossible for me to pick Elgin Baylor and George Gervin, I ain't never seen those dudes play and neither has the dudes picking them
People who know NBA history know what they have done tho.
But at the same time its hard to compare modern era to old school like Baylor.
Its kinda like people call MJ the greatest even tho Wilt was the most dominant player ever, but is rarely called the GOAT -
Charles BarkleyWe've seen MJ play, even though Wilt put up monster numbers but they wasn't seen by my generation of fans so we typically put the dudes who we saw on a higher pedestal.
It's not taking away from what those dudes did in the past but actually seeing players dominate with your own eyes will win out more than reading stats
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Elgin BaylorThis ? Elgin was Barkley before Barkley & I'm giving him his respect. It ain't Elgin fault that my parents decided to ? in the 80's.
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Elgin Baylor
DAmn O.G. you been at me since September of last year on this same topic when you wrote "wrong thread". I saw this when I went back to repost the reason why Iverson is BETTER than Barkley and you wrote "wrong thread" when I was talking about players with no rings.
Again, the numbers don't lie. Outside of rebounds Iverson had more an effect on the game before PER was invented, which I believe in PER somewhat and some of it is misleading when a franchise player is called on and pressured by his organization and team to take more risks than they would allow a regular player, but anyway here's the numbers on a conversation already had. Sidenote on the Malone issue: I don't care what awards Malone got on defense, that dude was not a defensive juggernaut threat when you looked at him play. I saw the dude, ? the award!
Old conversation:
Iverson vs Barkley (I know they play diff't positions)
Just to show how great Iverson was and which class he belongs to. He is in the class of people you would put above a Charles Barkley.
Just had another convo about Iverson. Said he was better than Barkley and folks erupted, saying he wasn't.
Can't put AI above Jordan, Kobe, Magic and some others but he damn sure was better than Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Mookie Blaylock, Stephen Curry, Tony Parker .
Todd MacCulloch was Iverson's second best player on the team he took to the finals(I would've said Eric Snow, but stats say this dude). That says everything.
Charles 1984-1996
Iverson 1996-2008
Iverson beats Charles in Points Per game for each year of his career (excluding his last return to 76ers)
Iverson beats Charles in Assists Per game each year of his career
Charles kills Iverson (and most in NBA) in rebounds, but Iverson does pretty well for a shooting guard of 6’0 for rebounds.
Iverson played more minutes per season than Charles
Iverson shot better free throws than Charles (Charles was known for being a good free throw shooter)
Iverson’s 3pt percentage is better than Charles
Charles shot a better FG% through his career
Iverson beat Charles in steals per game for career
Iverson committed less fouls throughout career than Charles
Turnovers were roughly the same, again considering Iverson handled the ball 10x as much as Charles this I will say Iverson in essence committed fewer turnovers.
*Iverson was rated the fifth-greatest NBA shooting guard of all time by ESPN in 2008.
*Iverson won Big East Defensive Player of the Year awards both years he played with Georgetown.
*Iverson is also 12th on the list of ALL TIME STEAL Leaders. As Kevin Durant (also pretty good) recently said about him being best pound for pound.
We are gonna have to agree to disagree about Malone on defense. Malone played good defense. #1 all time in defensive rebounds and #10 all time in steals. The master of the pull the chair out technique and the stripping the ball from post players.
As for all that other stuff you typed about AI vs Barkley. YOU ARE COMPARING A SHOOTING/COMBO GUARD TO A POWER FORWARD!!!!
Iverson was first,second and third option as a scorer while a Sixer. Of course he is gonna have a better ppg average.Iverson beats Charles in Points Per game
A guard who constantly has the ball in his hands will have more assists than a PF who has to wait to get the ball.Iverson beats Charles in Assists Per game
Well duh. A guard and PF have two different responsibilities when it comes to rebounding. Barkley plays in the post while AI roams the perimeter.Charles kills Iverson (and most in NBA) in rebounds
It's common knowledge that AI would pout if he had to come out of games. He even said it himself that he should of rested more.Iverson played more minutes per season than Charles
Most guards shoot better free throws than Power Forwards. It's been this way since the peach baskets.Iverson shot better free throws than Charles
lol. Different responsibilities and different eras.Iverson’s 3pt percentage is better than Charles
Post players usually will have a better FG% than guards. They take closer and easier shots. It's been this way since the peach baskets.Charles shot a better FG%
Guards normally have more steals than post players. Different responsibilities.Iverson beat Charles in steals
Post players are banging in the post so they will have more fouls than guards. It's been this way since the peach baskets.Iverson committed less fouls
It's not wrong to compare AI vs Barkley when it comes to all time ranking. I'm just saying that using their career numbers head to head as a gauge is silly bcuz they played two completely different positions. -
Allen IversonO.G. it ain't silly.
"It's not wrong to compare AI vs Barkley when it comes to all time ranking. I'm just saying that using their career numbers head to head as a gauge is silly bcuz they played two completely different positions."
I get the point, but scouts do it and teams do it; so therefore I'm right in doing it. Even when a team doesn't have a particular need for a certain position, but that team is in need of a franchise player to define their team --THEY will do what I did. What I did (that you seem to miss going point to point and didn't get the point) was show the effect on the game.
In any sport and even in different sports from MMA to boxing people do it. Could Tyson ko Jon Jones? People do it.
Then someone like you comes along and says it's different, thinking we haven't already known this.
I can compare position with position or position to a different position in basketball and determine which player might seem to have certain effects on the game and which player might be the better player. It's done all the time, especially in a thread titled THE BEST PLAYERS TO NEVER WIN A RING that begs the question to compare or validate the choice. I can say Iverson was better than Patrick Ewing (you can say different positions; and I'll say you're changing the subject. If you want to stay on positions I can talk that, but I'll talk what the world does and be right in doing so if I choose to compare them; even if I know there position determines alot; but I can also say to that argument that the COACH determines alot in who gets the ball. Look at Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis these are players with the ball in their hands 80% of the time and aren't guards who all have guard numbers. The NBA has many positions or blending of responsibilities that makes my points relevant when talking about a players effect on the game) The game today is about "who is your best player" and the team gives him the ball to win it unless your a team like the Hawks or Spurs.
On your point on Barkley. Did you see Barkley? He played like a Point Forward, which in essence is a guard. He held the ball every possession for nearly 20 seconds(like a guard is given privilege to do) and would back a player in and then pump fake, pump fake, pump fake again, then ram his body into yours and then shoot. I'm about as right as comparing Barkley to a SG as a person would be in comparing Lebron a small forward to a power forward.
I get the point on positions limit a player tremendously on certain statistics and aspects of the game. I can have the convo on position with position. But I made my point on being able to compare players effects while taking into account their statistics to do so. -
O.G. it ain't silly.
"It's not wrong to compare AI vs Barkley when it comes to all time ranking. I'm just saying that using their career numbers head to head as a gauge is silly bcuz they played two completely different positions."
I get the point, but scouts do it and teams do it; so therefore I'm right in doing it. Even when a team doesn't have a particular need for a certain position, but that team is in need of a franchise player to define their team --THEY will do what I did. What I did (that you seem to miss going point to point and didn't get the point) was show the effect on the game.
In any sport and even in different sports from MMA to boxing people do it. Could Tyson ko Jon Jones? People do it.
Then someone like you comes along and says it's different, thinking we haven't already known this.
I can compare position with position or position to a different position in basketball and determine which player might seem to have certain effects on the game and which player might be the better player. It's done all the time, especially in a thread titled THE BEST PLAYERS TO NEVER WIN A RING that begs the question to compare or validate the choice. I can say Iverson was better than Patrick Ewing (you can say different positions; and I'll say you're changing the subject. If you want to stay on positions I can talk that, but I'll talk what the world does and be right in doing so if I choose to compare them; even if I know there position determines alot; but I can also say to that argument that the COACH determines alot in who gets the ball. Look at Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis these are players with the ball in their hands 80% of the time and aren't guards who all have guard numbers. The NBA has many positions or blending of responsibilities that makes my points relevant when talking about a players effect on the game) The game today is about "who is your best player" and the team gives him the ball to win it unless your a team like the Hawks or Spurs.
On your point on Barkley. Did you see Barkley? He played like a Point Forward, which in essence is a guard. He held the ball every possession for nearly 20 seconds(like a guard is given privilege to do) and would back a player in and then pump fake, pump fake, pump fake again, then ram his body into yours and then shoot. I'm about as right as comparing Barkley to a SG as a person would be in comparing Lebron a small forward to a power forward.
I get the point on positions limit a player tremendously on certain statistics and aspects of the game. I can have the convo on position with position. But I made my point on being able to compare players effects while taking into account their statistics to do so.
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Kevin durant
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Elgin BaylorO.G. it ain't silly.
"It's not wrong to compare AI vs Barkley when it comes to all time ranking. I'm just saying that using their career numbers head to head as a gauge is silly bcuz they played two completely different positions."
I get the point, but scouts do it and teams do it; so therefore I'm right in doing it. Even when a team doesn't have a particular need for a certain position, but that team is in need of a franchise player to define their team --THEY will do what I did. What I did (that you seem to miss going point to point and didn't get the point) was show the effect on the game.
In any sport and even in different sports from MMA to boxing people do it. Could Tyson ko Jon Jones? People do it.
Then someone like you comes along and says it's different, thinking we haven't already known this.
I can compare position with position or position to a different position in basketball and determine which player might seem to have certain effects on the game and which player might be the better player. It's done all the time, especially in a thread titled THE BEST PLAYERS TO NEVER WIN A RING that begs the question to compare or validate the choice. I can say Iverson was better than Patrick Ewing (you can say different positions; and I'll say you're changing the subject. If you want to stay on positions I can talk that, but I'll talk what the world does and be right in doing so if I choose to compare them; even if I know there position determines alot; but I can also say to that argument that the COACH determines alot in who gets the ball. Look at Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis these are players with the ball in their hands 80% of the time and aren't guards who all have guard numbers. The NBA has many positions or blending of responsibilities that makes my points relevant when talking about a players effect on the game) The game today is about "who is your best player" and the team gives him the ball to win it unless your a team like the Hawks or Spurs.
On your point on Barkley. Did you see Barkley? He played like a Point Forward, which in essence is a guard. He held the ball every possession for nearly 20 seconds(like a guard is given privilege to do) and would back a player in and then pump fake, pump fake, pump fake again, then ram his body into yours and then shoot. I'm about as right as comparing Barkley to a SG as a person would be in comparing Lebron a small forward to a power forward.
I get the point on positions limit a player tremendously on certain statistics and aspects of the game. I can have the convo on position with position. But I made my point on being able to compare players effects while taking into account their statistics to do so.
Lol. You win bcuz you care waaaay more about this than i do.
And for the record.
Elgin Baylor>>>> Iverson
based off all that stuff you typed. -
Allen Iversonfair is fair OG. We ain't the first to do it or the last. "Bill Russell or Jordan and why?" Is constantly a convo had.
Elgin Baylor better than Iverson? Maybe. Again, I didn't see Elgin, but his stats are good. I been watching basketball and playing since I was like 6 seriously cause of my neighborhood so yeah I do get into it to a degree, and the players mentioned on Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Iverson I remember everything about those guys game. I can even tell you their strategies on how they would get certain shots or where they liked the ball and who had the better spin on the ball. I studied that ? and got nothing to show for it but posting ? on AHH, so f- it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSWE_Wbu80o
