Atheists/Agnostics
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NeighborhoodNomad.
Members Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
What's good IC,
This thread is for my atheist/agnostic brothers and sisters out here.
Atheists/agnostics, list the reasons you don't believe in a Higher Power/? /Creator/Most High or whatever title you choose (or don't choose). Especially dealing with biblical doctrine.
Also What is your concept or idea of (a) ? (s)?
Most of the arguments I have heard against scripture from atheist/agnostics either aren't in the bible at all or is taken completely out of context.
In my studies I learned that a lot of what I believed, or was told, was completely out of context as well.
Context:
Who is speaking?
Who is being spoken to?
Time period?
Location?
Let's discuss.
@waterproof
@Judge_Judah
This thread is for my atheist/agnostic brothers and sisters out here.
Atheists/agnostics, list the reasons you don't believe in a Higher Power/? /Creator/Most High or whatever title you choose (or don't choose). Especially dealing with biblical doctrine.
Also What is your concept or idea of (a) ? (s)?
Most of the arguments I have heard against scripture from atheist/agnostics either aren't in the bible at all or is taken completely out of context.
In my studies I learned that a lot of what I believed, or was told, was completely out of context as well.
Context:
Who is speaking?
Who is being spoken to?
Time period?
Location?
Let's discuss.
@waterproof
@Judge_Judah
Comments
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This is either gonna be a good thread with meaningful discussions, or page upon page of straight confusion....
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Why do you have to point out biblical doctrine
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Because the vast majority of atheist/agnostic arguments I have heard speak against biblical doctrine.
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I don't believe in a biblical creator, or the bible or any organized religion. With that said I am open to the idea of a "soul" and some type of "afterlife" or "transition"
I'm not one of those hard nosed materialistic skeptics who deny everything that doesn't suit their agenda -
NeighborhoodNomad. wrote: »Because the vast majority of atheist/agnostic arguments I have heard speak against biblical doctrine.
Be wary of atheist/agnostics who only base their faithlessness on a rejection of christianity. They are not truly atheist/agnostic about the existence of ? . Those people simply hate/reject the ? of abraham. -
I have agnostic tendencies, though I often think there could be a higher power out there. And some days, I think maybe there isn't. I will admit to strongly disliking the Bible ? but otherwise, I just don't see a lot of evidence of a "powerful" ? out there, though I do believe there are some forms of design in the universe. So I guess my mind is open to different possibilities, but I without a doubt think the Abrahamic ? is phony.
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NeighborhoodNomad. wrote: »Because the vast majority of atheist/agnostic arguments I have heard speak against biblical doctrine.
Be wary of atheist/agnostics who only base their faithlessness on a rejection of christianity. They are not truly atheist/agnostic about the existence of ? . Those people simply hate/reject the ? of abraham.
Most atheists and agnostics I've known, especially my father, think most or all religions are silly. Not just the Abrahamic ? , but I'll admit it probably gets made fun of the most these days though -
kingblaze84 wrote: »NeighborhoodNomad. wrote: »Because the vast majority of atheist/agnostic arguments I have heard speak against biblical doctrine.
Be wary of atheist/agnostics who only base their faithlessness on a rejection of christianity. They are not truly atheist/agnostic about the existence of ? . Those people simply hate/reject the ? of abraham.
Most atheists and agnostics I've known, especially my father, think most or all religions are silly. Not just the Abrahamic ? , but I'll admit it probably gets made fun of the most these days though
That's still no intellectual defense of a position it's just an opinion and I BELIEVE the thread starter wants an ACTUAL ANSWER. -
there are a lot of fraud atheist and agnostics these people believe in all kinds of unproven supernatural things but not ? . They believe is ghosts, the afterlife, demons etc etc etc but somehow the possibility of ? is too much for them.
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"mainstream" science came to the conclusion that energy can't be created nor destroyed. Maybe death is just a transition to another experience? We have the be honest, as much as we think we know. we really don't know much. We are barely scratching the surface
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Yes I was looking for specific sayings/doctrine(s) that made you come to the conclusion there is no ? .
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Man where do we start. First off what is Jesus's Lineage. Matthew Luke Chronicles all disagree. Luke and Matthew are competing accounts because Luke preferences his with the statement he researched his on his own. So somebodies wrong. Bible would have a better leg to stand if it wasn't for the Book of Revelation. It should be called the Astrological guide to the Bible.
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My next 1. Where's heaven. Point to it. Where's hell Point to it. The Ancient Israelites didn't have a belief in seven layer burrito heaven. The sky was heaven the ground was hell. Once science debunks that then we get meta physical stuff you can't prove.
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Because somebody made up the myths just like other myths for their own purposes (order, comfort, power, wealth), and nobody bothered to see if it was true (in regards to hearing voices, and describing ideas of what ? wants while simultaneously saying no one can truly know ? ) before leaping headfirst and dedicating their entire life to it. It's like people that do ? based on old wives tales, and they never realize that there are better ways to go about it.
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there are a lot of fraud atheist and agnostics these people believe in all kinds of unproven supernatural things but not ? . They believe is ghosts, the afterlife, demons etc etc etc but somehow the possibility of ? is too much for them.
The only thing i've seen people cling to on here was the possibility of Aliens even though they tend to get a bit extra with it. Other than that, people do claim Spirituality and I've always found that to be bordering religious even though it does have a basis in known energy. -
papipeligro wrote: »My next 1. Where's heaven. Point to it. Where's hell Point to it. The Ancient Israelites didn't have a belief in seven layer burrito heaven. The sky was heaven the ground was hell. Once science debunks that then we get meta physical stuff you can't prove.
There could be arguments made both for and against this... -
papipeligro wrote: »My next 1. Where's heaven. Point to it. Where's hell Point to it. The Ancient Israelites didn't have a belief in seven layer burrito heaven. The sky was heaven the ground was hell. Once science debunks that then we get meta physical stuff you can't prove.
This is true. The idea of hades and burning eternally when we die is a modern day doctrine but not at all an ancient concept.
Hell = Sheol = The Grave nothing more. Ashes to ashes dust to dust.
And heaven is/was broken down on three levels. We have the heaven meaning sky, heaven meaning outer space and heaven the spiritual realm. The concept of dying and going to heaven is a modern day one as well.
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kingblaze84 wrote: »I have agnostic tendencies, though I often think there could be a higher power out there. And some days, I think maybe there isn't. I will admit to strongly disliking the Bible ? but otherwise, I just don't see a lot of evidence of a "powerful" ? out there, though I do believe there are some forms of design in the universe. So I guess my mind is open to different possibilities, but I without a doubt think the Abrahamic ? is phony.
if the bolded ain't one of the most asinine narcissistic most prideful statements I have ever heard, I don't know what is!
You go create a universe ex nihilo if the heavens don't declare a "powerful ? "
You go create a sun ex nihilo if the sun doesn't keep you warm enough
You go create water ex nihilo since you can do better!
You go create an earth and hang it upon nothing since you have more power!
I'm waiting....... -
I'll bite.
I was raised into a Christian household. Hell, my dad became a minister, then ordained a reverend while I was a teenager. He's been pastor of the church across the street from my childhood home since '98. Before we came back to that church (cause he left it for about seven years), we were members of two other churches.
I never much liked or cared for church, but I was dragged there every Sunday, and most Wednesday nights, so I had to deal with it growing up. However, at the second church we joined, I saw just how shady and hypocritical the Christian faith was when the pastor of that church got indicted for fraud and embezzlement (amongst other shady things I saw). He ended up having to do Fed time for a few years, which is the reason my dad left and went back home.
A lot of people who know me will say I didn't really "become" Agnostic till I graduated from college, which I find 1) totally ignorant, 2) telling to me on how they REALLY feel about educated people (most who don't have a higher education are scared shitless of those who get one), and 3) furthest from the truth. My mom once said that school "made me too smart for the Bible." I find this funny since I learned ZERO about religion in school (other than the Gospel Choir had more hoes in it than the marching band), and pretty much everything about honing my critical and analytical thinking skills. I was already on my way out the Christian door upon graduating HS....my time in college really didn't help keep me there, or push me further away.
It's been 10 years since I graduated college, and I've been Agnostic for about eight of them. The things I experienced in my adult life simply led me to the conclusion that IF there's a higher power out there - and I fully believe that there is - this is not it. There's no real evidence to distinguish Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or any one of the thousands of belief systems from "the true religion", and not one of them has been proven to be any more right than the other. Also, I'm not naive enough to overlook all the CONCRETE scientific evidence found that says the Earth itself is anything less than 100,000 years old, unlike most religions claim, when they say Earth was created no more than 15,000 years ago.
One basic argument I've seen time and time again was "why would you let other people sway your decision to leave the church?" The truth is: They never did, but I found it to be an extra point to mention that if ? is represented by his children on Earth, and some of his children have proven to be more hateful, wicked, and vengeful than I - a "non-believer" at this point - why shouldn't I look at that representation as a factor in whether I want to follow that religion?
I'm just forced to conclude that ALL religions are mostly served by people who had no real say in it, and that was taught it from the cradle up (mostly being forced to participate in it as children). It's really only till someone hits adulthood that they can determine whether that belief system is right for them. If I had to categorize myself, I'm pretty sure this makes me an Agnostic Theist. -
? is eternal. If you say the earth is a jillion bajillion years old, OK. ? is still in back of that! ? had no beginning and He has no end! If Genesis 1:1 happened 70 billion years ago, Ok. Put your peg down there! If you say the earth was created 500 billon years ago, ok. Put your peg down there.
The bottom line is that if you believe that Genesis 1:1 is true, you can believe every verse that comes after it. Once ? started forming the earth, after a billion gajillion years, that was the first day! So I have no problem with how old people say the earth is because that excuse doesn't attack the root of their problem anyways. Amen.
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papipeligro wrote: »Man where do we start. First off what is Jesus's Lineage. Matthew Luke Chronicles all disagree. Luke and Matthew are competing accounts because Luke preferences his with the statement he researched his on his own. So somebodies wrong. Bible would have a better leg to stand if it wasn't for the Book of Revelation. It should be called the Astrological guide to the Bible.
There is no discrepancy of the lineage of jesus in Matthew and Luke. Luke is recording Mary’s genealogy and Matthew is recording Joseph’s. Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), through David’s son Nathan. Since there was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” Joseph was called the “son of Heli” by marriage to Mary, Heli’s daughter. Through either Mary’s or Joseph’s line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah. -
papipeligro wrote: »My next 1. Where's heaven. Point to it. Where's hell Point to it. The Ancient Israelites didn't have a belief in seven layer burrito heaven. The sky was heaven the ground was hell. Once science debunks that then we get meta physical stuff you can't prove.
Heaven is where ? is. It's where the stars of ? are. It's in the heights of the clouds. It's in the farthest reaches of the north.
The New Testament fleshes is out and says that it is located in the third heaven.
1st heaven- where birds fly
2nd heaven- space where the planets and galaxies are
3rd heaven- where ? is
Amen.
Do you want to go to heaven? -
I'll bite.
I was raised into a Christian household. Hell, my dad became a minister, then ordained a reverend while I was a teenager. He's been pastor of the church across the street from my childhood home since '98. Before we came back to that church (cause he left it for about seven years), we were members of two other churches.
I never much liked or cared for church, but I was dragged there every Sunday, and most Wednesday nights, so I had to deal with it growing up. However, at the second church we joined, I saw just how shady and hypocritical the Christian faith was when the pastor of that church got indicted for fraud and embezzlement (amongst other shady things I saw). He ended up having to do Fed time for a few years, which is the reason my dad left and went back home.
A lot of people who know me will say I didn't really "become" Agnostic till I graduated from college, which I find 1) totally ignorant, 2) telling to me on how they REALLY feel about educated people (most who don't have a higher education are scared shitless of those who get one), and 3) furthest from the truth. My mom once said that school "made me too smart for the Bible." I find this funny since I learned ZERO about religion in school (other than the Gospel Choir had more hoes in it than the marching band), and pretty much everything about honing my critical and analytical thinking skills. I was already on my way out the Christian door upon graduating HS....my time in college really didn't help keep me there, or push me further away.
It's been 10 years since I graduated college, and I've been Agnostic for about eight of them. The things I experienced in my adult life simply led me to the conclusion that IF there's a higher power out there - and I fully believe that there is - this is not it. There's no real evidence to distinguish Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or any one of the thousands of belief systems from "the true religion", and not one of them has been proven to be any more right than the other. Also, I'm not naive enough to overlook all the CONCRETE scientific evidence found that says the Earth itself is anything less than 100,000 years old, unlike most religions claim, when they say Earth was created no more than 15,000 years ago.
One basic argument I've seen time and time again was "why would you let other people sway your decision to leave the church?" The truth is: They never did, but I found it to be an extra point to mention that if ? is represented by his children on Earth, and some of his children have proven to be more hateful, wicked, and vengeful than I - a "non-believer" at this point - why shouldn't I look at that representation as a factor in whether I want to follow that religion?
I'm just forced to conclude that ALL religions are mostly served by people who had no real say in it, and that was taught it from the cradle up (mostly being forced to participate in it as children). It's really only till someone hits adulthood that they can determine whether that belief system is right for them. If I had to categorize myself, I'm pretty sure this makes me an Agnostic Theist.
The bible doesn't say how old/young the earth/universe is but religion does. They are "adding" to the scriptures and proving themselves to be liars. Now when we hear the lie do we blame the doctrine or the speaker?
We must remember the purpose of scriptures in the first place. The scriptures are here to outline/guide our conduct and our redemption when we fail to live up to that. When we don't treat others the way we would want to be treated, it takes something from us.
The bible isn't a scientific book. It's a code of conduct.
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Atheism and Agnosticism aren't the same thing.
A-theism is the philosophical denial of any deity in the known universe.
Gnosticism is simply the questioning of traditional or orthodox beliefs about ? .
Now there's a difference between eastern religions like buddhism, hinduism, shintoism, and other smaller religions and then abrahamic religions like islam, christianity, and judaism.
primary difference is that eastern religions are more fluid and more tolerant of divergent unorthodox beliefs. There is no one way to salvation, and if you not really ? with a particular pantheon then find one you do ? with. Eastern religions tend to be a search for truth.
Abrahamic religions are the opposite, they are rigid, intolerant, and the path to salvation is clearly outlined, if you step ouside that path there are consequences. Abrahamic religions aren't concerned with truth so much as obedience to doctrine. Questioning doctrine is itself an act of treason. Searching for knowledge or truth outside of what is given as doctrine is heresy. Abrahamic religions tend to be closed off, inflexible, and need practitioner to be stupid, gullible and fearful. Because Abrahamic religions are so rigid they cannot coexist with any competing religious beliefs, which is why all nonbelievers are treated with contempt, persecuted, and treated as enemies.
because Abrahamic religions are so inflexible and hostile it lends itself to out right criticism and mockery as time goes on. The only way Abrahamic religions can qash criticism is through violent suppression. here in the west that is a no go, but in the Middle East and Africa, heads get chopped, ? get stoned and kicked out of houses.
So when atheists and agnostics go in on religion, they focus on these religions because Christianity and Judaism and Islam be doin the most.
Now an intellectual, or fact based denial of these particular religious doctrines is rather easy. Because Abrahamic religions insist on their stories taking place in actual history (literal) then all you have to do is show how dates don't match up contradict. You can also go in on actual recorded history that talks about the creation of certain figures like jesus, and how stories from the bible re plagiarized from other mythologies. We can talk about the lack of evidence for a people kept in Egypt as slaves or even being there for 400 years, or we could talk about how here is a lack of evidence for a physical place known as israel or judah.
But honestly, we've beaten that particular argument into the ground. At this point it's a matter of belief, and belief is based on emotions not intellect People are emotionally invested into their particular religion and are going to reason their way and perform all types of mental gymnastics to argue why their beliefs are true and their ? is literal and real.
Even atheism is a belief based on emotion. People are invested in proving that ? isn't rel and that the material universe is all that exists or matter. Consequently, atheists will ignore or rationalize evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
