Better Overall Wrestler: Randy Orton vs Edge

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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Orton isnt even technical. He just CAN be if he wanted to. He worked technical styles before against certain opponents but he's not technical.

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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    1. I know orton didn't always work slow. that's why i said "at times"

    you say edges eye buldging, hair pulling was overboard meanwhile orton punching the ground before the RKO did nothing for me. preferences

    2. I already pointed out both weren't that good as a face. mentioning the corny spear chant proves my point. it did get over with the crowd. but I wasn't a fan

    3. fair enough

    4. I didn't say the RKO was wack. I called it a dope finisher. as far as effectiveness it's a sorrier diamond cutter and stone cold stunner. the stunner jacks your jaw. the RKO guides you to the mat. it's a cooler looking finisher tho, I'll give you that

    orton was forced as the face of wwe in 2013. he was a boring champion during that period unless he snapped. but that wasn't his fault. the fans was just tired of seeing him and wanted something new in DB. never have an edge match been ? on like orton's at SS2013, RR2014, and the raw after WM29. I guess he forgot those mannerisms and facials that night

    lol at la familia being a crutch meanwhile orton had evolution, legacy, and the authority

    He was the leader of Legacy just starting out in Evolution and I agree FOTWWE 2013 Authority Orton was trash but his matches were still on point. By that time he stopped caring.

    Edge was ? his last 2 years in WWE. He was a struggle face. Orton might not be as motivated as he used to be but at his peak he was superior to Edge.

    I was also not talking about crutches in the form of stables but sources of heat. Edge without Lita never gets main event heat and without Vickie it would have died out. Edge was being shoved in the main event spot since he went solo and it never worked.
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  • blu197
    blu197 Members Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    jono wrote: »
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    1. I know orton didn't always work slow. that's why i said "at times"

    you say edges eye buldging, hair pulling was overboard meanwhile orton punching the ground before the RKO did nothing for me. preferences

    2. I already pointed out both weren't that good as a face. mentioning the corny spear chant proves my point. it did get over with the crowd. but I wasn't a fan

    3. fair enough

    4. I didn't say the RKO was wack. I called it a dope finisher. as far as effectiveness it's a sorrier diamond cutter and stone cold stunner. the stunner jacks your jaw. the RKO guides you to the mat. it's a cooler looking finisher tho, I'll give you that

    orton was forced as the face of wwe in 2013. he was a boring champion during that period unless he snapped. but that wasn't his fault. the fans was just tired of seeing him and wanted something new in DB. never have an edge match been ? on like orton's at SS2013, RR2014, and the raw after WM29. I guess he forgot those mannerisms and facials that night

    lol at la familia being a crutch meanwhile orton had evolution, legacy, and the authority

    He was the leader of Legacy just starting out in Evolution and I agree FOTWWE 2013 Authority Orton was trash but his matches were still on point. By that time he stopped caring.

    Edge was ? his last 2 years in WWE. He was a struggle face. Orton might not be as motivated as he used to be but at his peak he was superior to Edge.

    I was also not talking about crutches in the form of stables but sources of heat. Edge without Lita never gets main event heat and without Vickie it would have died out. Edge was being shoved in the main event spot since he went solo and it never worked.

    Dude everybody needs somebody to get heat, nobody gets heat just bc they're heel, Orton got kayfabe heat off of Evolutions coat tails and kissing Stephanie.. Edge got REAL heat for sleeping with his friends girl by the fans and in the locker room and kayfabe heat for beating Cenas Dad... You forcing how bad Edge was his last 2 years, yea his performance went down but he had a bunch of injuries and was 37-38 years old by then, and if Edge is a struggle face to you then what do you consider Orton bc he's a 2x worse face than Edge..
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  • blu197
    blu197 Members Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    And you're really sayin they forced Edge to the main event spot (even though he well earned that spot) but Orton got forced down everyone's throat even harder, they pushed Orton to stop Benoits title reign prematurely just so Orton could be the "youngest world champion" over Brock...
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  • Already Home_17
    Already Home_17 Members Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
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    Edge
    jono wrote: »
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    1. I know orton didn't always work slow. that's why i said "at times"

    you say edges eye buldging, hair pulling was overboard meanwhile orton punching the ground before the RKO did nothing for me. preferences

    2. I already pointed out both weren't that good as a face. mentioning the corny spear chant proves my point. it did get over with the crowd. but I wasn't a fan

    3. fair enough

    4. I didn't say the RKO was wack. I called it a dope finisher. as far as effectiveness it's a sorrier diamond cutter and stone cold stunner. the stunner jacks your jaw. the RKO guides you to the mat. it's a cooler looking finisher tho, I'll give you that

    orton was forced as the face of wwe in 2013. he was a boring champion during that period unless he snapped. but that wasn't his fault. the fans was just tired of seeing him and wanted something new in DB. never have an edge match been ? on like orton's at SS2013, RR2014, and the raw after WM29. I guess he forgot those mannerisms and facials that night

    lol at la familia being a crutch meanwhile orton had evolution, legacy, and the authority

    He was the leader of Legacy just starting out in Evolution and I agree FOTWWE 2013 Authority Orton was trash but his matches were still on point. By that time he stopped caring.

    Edge was ? his last 2 years in WWE. He was a struggle face. Orton might not be as motivated as he used to be but at his peak he was superior to Edge.

    I was also not talking about crutches in the form of stables but sources of heat. Edge without Lita never gets main event heat and without Vickie it would have died out. Edge was being shoved in the main event spot since he went solo and it never worked.

    orton won the world title one month after losing the IC title. never main evented prior to that match. that's being shoved into the main event spotlight

    edge was a mid-carder after he went solo
    got injured
    came back as a midcarder
    won MITB and won the world title 4 years after he went solo. how is that being shoved into the main event spotlight?

    edge is popular and respected amongst the wwe fans. well over 10 time wwe and tag team champion
    multiple time IC champion
    Royal Rumble winner
    hall of famer

    what didn't work? whether he was a heel or face he was always over with the fans

    you're speaking for yourself here
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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
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    Randy Orton
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    jono wrote: »
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    1. I know orton didn't always work slow. that's why i said "at times"

    you say edges eye buldging, hair pulling was overboard meanwhile orton punching the ground before the RKO did nothing for me. preferences

    2. I already pointed out both weren't that good as a face. mentioning the corny spear chant proves my point. it did get over with the crowd. but I wasn't a fan

    3. fair enough

    4. I didn't say the RKO was wack. I called it a dope finisher. as far as effectiveness it's a sorrier diamond cutter and stone cold stunner. the stunner jacks your jaw. the RKO guides you to the mat. it's a cooler looking finisher tho, I'll give you that

    orton was forced as the face of wwe in 2013. he was a boring champion during that period unless he snapped. but that wasn't his fault. the fans was just tired of seeing him and wanted something new in DB. never have an edge match been ? on like orton's at SS2013, RR2014, and the raw after WM29. I guess he forgot those mannerisms and facials that night

    lol at la familia being a crutch meanwhile orton had evolution, legacy, and the authority
    He was the leader of Legacy just starting out in Evolution and I agree FOTWWE 2013 Authority Orton was trash but his matches were still on point. By that time he stopped caring.

    Edge was ? his last 2 years in WWE. He was a struggle face. Orton might not be as motivated as he used to be but at his peak he was superior to Edge.

    I was also not talking about crutches in the form of stables but sources of heat. Edge without Lita never gets main event heat and without Vickie it would have died out. Edge was being shoved in the main event spot since he went solo and it never worked.

    orton won the world title one month after losing the IC title. never main evented prior to that match. that's being shoved into the main event spotlight

    Rushed...maybe but not forced. He was one of the top heels in the business at that point. The Legend Killer feuded with HBK, Foley, had big matches with guys like Goldberg, The Rock was in the elimination chamber etc and he lost the belt a month later. Spit in Jake Roberts face dude was clowning in 2003/2004.
    edge was a mid-carder after he went solo
    got injured
    came back as a midcarder
    won MITB and won the world title 4 years after he went solo. how is that being shoved into the main event spotlight?

    Edge was earmarked for being the top star years before it happened. Blu just posted his match with Brock Lesnar from 2002-2003. They wanted him as the top dog then. Thats why they put all those accomplishments on him. KOTR, IC Champ They even put him in teams with Hulk Hogan and Rey Mysterio to help him.

    edge is popular and respected amongst the wwe fans. well over 10 time wwe and tag team champion
    multiple time IC champion
    Royal Rumble winner
    hall of famer

    what didn't work? whether he was a heel or face he was always over with the fans

    you're speaking for yourself here

    Theres over then there is MAIN EVENT over. Edge was not seen by anyone other than the office as a legit top star until 2006 when it was made public what he did to Matt Hardy. Without Lita Edge never reaches the heights he got, not saying he wouldnt have been champ but 12 time champ or whatever he was no.

    WWE was pushing Edge in 2001 but injuries and lack of significant fan interest in relation to other talents kept him sidelined. He was supposed to be the one man Evolution killer when they were at their peak...how'd that go? They did the "crazy ? heel" Edge after that and how did that work?

    None of that ? made a big difference until the Lita ? , they even tried to recreate the ? with LOL Kane. They piled on the achievements as people still didnt care about him.

    Without Lita Edge is like...King Barrett, a career midcarder with alot of accomplishments but not going to be THAT guy. Now, because of Lita Edge is his generation's HHH that got by more from the woman he was attached to than what he did himself.
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  • blu197
    blu197 Members Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    And ppl really think this ? jono isnt the worst poster in here when he makes up bs, takes revisionist to another level and post what if scenarios from his head as if those scenarios would've actually happened lol... ? really tryin to hype up Lita as if she made his career and Edge was some jobber before ? her.. worst ? poster bar none... Edge is like King Barrett? LOL
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  • Already Home_17
    Already Home_17 Members Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    yous a funny ? jono. you're lost but ima help you. follow the buzzards homie

    you bring up personal ties benefiting edge while ignoring orton's family and his relationship with triple h. you're ignoring the numerous drug violations orton has under his belt yet still managed to win multiple world titles afterwards. i wonder why that is. not saying he didnt earn his spot but these ties most definitely helped him in the long run

    you're saying edge owes all of his success to lita. why didnt that feud benefit hardy like it did edge? he was booked as the babyface and sympathetic figure. simply put edge was better at getting heat than hardy was at gaining sympathy and support. edge carried that feud in those promo battles

    now, onto this ridiculous idea that edge was shoved into the main event picture. one UK ppv battle with the wwe champion that resulted in a loss doesnt mean a wrestler is being shoved into the main event spotlight

    jericho faced hhh for the wwe title in 2000. was he shoved in the main event picture? no. he went back to the mid-card just like edge did. edge gradually rose to the top unlike orton. your argument is based on edge being put into the main event too soon while ignoring the fact that actually happened to the wrestler you're supporting. orton won the world title 4 weeks after losing the IC title (to edge ironically). HE was shoved in the spotlight. HE was deemed a legend killer and facing the likes of hbk before he even won A title
    He was supposed to be the one man Evolution killer when they were at their peak...how'd that go?

    he beat orton for the IC title and batista as well.

    They did the "crazy ? heel" Edge after that and how did that work?

    he won MITB and the world title 8 months later. edge and his ultimate opportunist gimmick is the main reason why MITB is so popular. there is no "cashing in MITB on an exhausted champion", which the likes of cm punk, DB and ziggler benefited from.....without edge

    WWE was pushing Edge in 2001 but injuries and lack of significant fan interest in relation to other talents kept him sidelined

    14103401754007.gif
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  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
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    Edge struggled to get to main event in the early 2000s but what kept him popping ims his ring work especially during the sd6 , Randy smooth as he'll but doesn't have the move set edge does, he's good with psychology BUT edge was better especially in his prime, just look at his matches with cena vs randys. I think ur reaching on the force too, edge was right with(a step behind) randy, it took him a while but he earned being on top of smackdown
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  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don't get the point of making comparison threads n acting like one isn't comparable lol

    Also edge wasn't just trash at the end, he had a few standout matches
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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    yous a funny ? jono. you're lost but ima help you. follow the buzzards homie

    you bring up personal ties benefiting edge while ignoring orton's family and his relationship with triple h. you're ignoring the numerous drug violations orton has under his belt yet still managed to win multiple world titles afterwards. i wonder why that is. not saying he didnt earn his spot but these ties most definitely helped him in the long run
    Orton definitely had some favoritism but thats why i put them against each other. They both had favoritism. They both office friendly and benefitted from politics on and off screen.

    Edge also got busted using HGH. Randy was caught up in that same sting with Rey and a few others in 2007.

    Back to the point though. Orton got over on his own. He didnt need his daddy or some ? . He was already a former WHC and feuding with UNDERTAKER when Bob Orton became an onscreen act. I havent seen anything that states Bob had any clout to help out Randy.
    you're saying edge owes all of his success to lita. why didnt that feud benefit hardy like it did edge? he was booked as the babyface and sympathetic figure. simply put edge was better at getting heat than hardy was at gaining sympathy and support. edge carried that feud in those promo battles
    You should know the answer to this - politics. Hardy was also fired for actually being upset his friend ? his girl while they continued pushing Edge and then made a mockery of the whole thing using Kane.
    now, onto this ridiculous idea that edge was shoved into the main event picture. one UK ppv battle with the wwe champion that resulted in a loss doesnt mean a wrestler is being shoved into the main event spotlight
    I didnt say that. I said he was being positioned which he was. Getting rubs from Hulk Hogan?
    jericho faced hhh for the wwe title in 2000. was he shoved in the main event picture? no. he went back to the mid-card just like edge did. edge gradually rose to the top unlike orton. your argument is based on edge being put into the main event too soon while ignoring the fact that actually happened to the wrestler you're supporting. orton won the world title 4 weeks after losing the IC title (to edge ironically). HE was shoved in the spotlight. HE was deemed a legend killer and facing the likes of hbk before he even won A title

    No. Im arguing that Edge was shoved down peoples throats and didn't put on the same caliber of work as Orton. Orton was young but look at that run and those matches and angles he was involved in, why shouldn't he have won the title?

    Orton's legend killer gimmick was far more over than anything Edge had done up to that point and Edge has been in the company far longer.

    BUT Edge was positioned as a top guy BEFORE Orton even debuted! Way back in 2001/2002.
    He was supposed to be the one man Evolution killer when they were at their peak...how'd that go?

    he beat orton for the IC title and batista as well.
    [/quote]
    He beat Orton twice, once by cheating but there are two other far more significant members of evolution that Edge didnt get to. IIRC he got hurt...
    They did the "crazy ? heel" Edge after that and how did that work?
    he won MITB and the world title 8 months later. edge and his ultimate opportunist gimmick is the main reason why MITB is so popular. there is no "cashing in MITB on an exhausted champion", which the likes of cm punk, DB and ziggler benefited from.....without edge
    You ignoring that he was floundering before that. Edge won the WWE TITLE in 2006 he wasnt relevant as a main event act before then despite WWE repeatedly putting him in those spots.
    WWE was pushing Edge in 2001 but injuries and lack of significant fan interest in relation to other talents kept him sidelined

    You can go listen to the crowds...thats easy. [/quote]

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  • Already Home_17
    Already Home_17 Members Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
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    Edge
    Edge also got busted using HGH.

    orton was caught using more than HGH
    Orton got over on his own. He didnt need his daddy or some ?

    so evolution never existed huh?
    Orton's legend killer gimmick was far more over than anything Edge had done up to that point and Edge has been in the company far longer

    in singles competition, sure
    I didnt say that. I said he was being positioned which he was. Getting rubs from Hulk Hogan?

    orton getting rubs from flair? hogan and edge was tag champions for two weeks. flair was in orton's corner for damn near two years, not to mention hhh and batista. did that not contribute?
    No. Im arguing that Edge was shoved down peoples throats

    let me get this straight

    a six year rise from the tag team division to the mid card to the main event picture = edge was being shoved down the audiences throats

    winning the world title only two years after debuting = "why shouldn't he have won the title?"

    because he wasnt ready ? . he said so himself and its not like he's the most humble dude on the planet. they gave him the title to label him the youngest champion ever since brock left. its not like they felt he deserved over everyone else at that time. he was just younger than everyone else. if edge was younger than brock, he would've won the title
    (edge) didn't put on the same caliber of work as Orton

    edge was killing ? on a tag team and singles level while orton was being discharged from the military. injuries set him back, but he never had an issue getting over
    You ignoring that he was floundering before that. Edge won the WWE TITLE in 2006 he wasnt relevant as a main event act before then despite WWE repeatedly putting him in those spots

    edge wasnt featured in the main event while holding the briefcase. that would kinda defeat the purpose of MITB wouldnt it?
    and how was he floundering? this was the same year where the fans found out about that love triangle and he was getting major heat from the crowd
    You can go listen to the crowds...thats easy

    word?
    thats why the crowd chose to cheer edge during the KOTR tournament while he was labeled a heel right?
    thats why he he was one of the most popular wrestlers on smackdown during its peak right?
    thats why the raw after he won the title was one of the most watched 7 years right?
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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Edge had more passion for the business than Orton but Orton...in all honesty is the Cena-Lesnar prototype. He can work heel and face to equal effectiveness. Dude is charismatic as ? but can't really cut promos which actually worked in his favor with the Viper character.

    Orton should have been fired for bullying divas in 2005 and he was and still is a legendary ? backstage but dude probably one of the most gifted cats ever. He's a natural at this ? .

    If Cena is Hogan, Orton is Savage.

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  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Already Home_17 wrote: »
    Edge also got busted using HGH.

    orton was caught using more than HGH
    Orton got over on his own. He didnt need his daddy or some ?

    so evolution never existed huh?
    Orton's legend killer gimmick was far more over than anything Edge had done up to that point and Edge has been in the company far longer
    in singles competition, sure
    E&C was a comedy act that got over doing ladder matches. In a tag team division with such powehouses as T&A and Too Cool.
    I didnt say that. I said he was being positioned which he was. Getting rubs from Hulk Hogan?

    orton getting rubs from flair? hogan and edge was tag champions for two weeks. flair was in orton's corner for damn near two years, not to mention hhh and batista. did that not contribute?
    It worked didnt it? Edge was hobnobbing with Hogan, Lesnar, feuding with Kurt Angle and still didnt make main event until he ? Lita.
    No. Im arguing that Edge was shoved down peoples throats
    [quot]
    let me get this straight

    a six year rise from the tag team division to the mid card to the main event picture = edge was being shoved down the audiences throats
    Just because you are popular doesnt mean you main event material. Its also not a meritocracy. Edge was not accepted as a legit main event act
    winning the world title only two years after debuting = "why shouldn't he have won the title?"

    because he wasnt ready ? . he said so himself and its not like he's the most humble dude on the planet. they gave him the title to label him the youngest champion ever since brock left. its not like they felt he deserved over everyone else at that time. he was just younger than everyone else. if edge was younger than brock, he would've won the title
    Hes also better than Brock. I know this is the typical IWC talking point but the plan was always for Randy to be champion. That was the goal of Evolution. His development was faster than anyone elses. No point i holding him down for no reason. In fact even after he won the strap people still complained he was being held down, most. It was punishment for his antics.
    (edge) didn't put on the same caliber of work as Orton
    edge was killing ? on a tag team and singles level while orton was being discharged from the military. injuries set him back, but he never had an issue getting over
    .
    He was spot monkeying it up in the tag team scene which is why he stayed hurt when it mattered.
    You ignoring that he was floundering before that. Edge won the WWE TITLE in 2006 he wasnt relevant as a main event act before then despite WWE repeatedly putting him in those spots
    edge wasnt featured in the main event while holding the briefcase. that would kinda defeat the purpose of MITB wouldnt it?
    and how was he floundering? this was the same year where the fans found out about that love triangle and he was getting major heat from the crowd
    It was the love triangle was the truth source of his heat not his promos or his anything else.
    You can go listen to the crowds...thats easy
    word?
    thats why the crowd chose to cheer edge during the KOTR tournament while he was labeled a heel right?
    He was in a comedy tag team. Also clearly Kurt Angle was the heel.
    thats why he he was one of the most popular wrestlers on smackdown during its peak right?
    Thanks to them rubs from Eddie, Angle, Benoit, Hogan etc
    thats why the raw after he won the title was one of the most watched 7 years right?

    The live sex gimmick? You dont think ? really tuned in to see ? EDGE did you?
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  • TRILLip Brooks
    TRILLip Brooks Members Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton is one of the most boring, bland wrestlers ever
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  • DOPEdweebz
    DOPEdweebz Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 29,364 Regulator
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    Edge
    Edges "hug" was WOAT minus when he did it in TLC matches and the fire table spot vs Foley.
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  • blu197
    blu197 Members Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
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    Edge
    edge-spears-y2j-off-a-ladder-o.gif
    thdd16bb21.gif~c200
    534439.gif
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  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    jono wrote: »
    If Cena is Hogan, Orton is Savage.

    i agree with this but edge was right there for a long time
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  • Already Home_17
    Already Home_17 Members Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    Edge was not accepted as a legit main event act

    once given the opportunity, he remained in the main event until he retired. guess everyone who didnt see him as main event material was wrong
    I know this is the typical IWC talking point but the plan was always for Randy to be champion. That was the goal of Evolution. His development was faster than anyone elses. No point i holding him down for no reason

    orton was destined (no pun) to be a world champion. however by the time summerslam 04 occured he wasnt ready. but given he was younger than brock and we all know how petty the wwe can be, they gave orton the title simply because of his age. this was proven when hhh won the belt 4 weeks later

    its crazy that both edge and orton were nothing more than transitional champions the first time they held the belt. both should've been given a little more time to show and prove imo
    He was spot monkeying it up in the tag team scene which is why he stayed hurt when it mattered

    im not holding that against him. he did it to entertain the fans and he was apart one of the greatest era's in tag team wrestling. dont be fickle now
    He was in a comedy tag team

    a comedy tag team that bashed the brains in of every babyface tag team. yeah, thats hilarious
    it was heel vs heel, but they chose to cheer edge
    Thanks to them rubs from Eddie, Angle, Benoit, Hogan

    i guess we're gonna pretend having great matches with those wrestlers is a bad thing now
    you keep bringing up rubs against edge like its a bad thing. how tf you think stars get made?
    and compared the rubs orton got, ? please
    the live sex gimmick? You dont think ? really tuned in to see ? EDGE did you?

    they tuned in to see a new wwe champion after seeing cena overcame the odds for 9 months. people were starting to grow tired of cena. it was a breath of fresh air
    the idea of sex on live tv added to the intrigue
    it was the perfect storm
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  • BangEm_Bart
    BangEm_Bart Members Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Never liked edge. ? can't wrestle imo. Randy has put on some dope matches and played a good heel. Edge will always be a heel cause he sucks like HHH and Cena. They just have faces you wanna punch.
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  • Mdizzle9000
    Mdizzle9000 Members, Writer Posts: 8,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Randy Orton
    Edge never seemed believable to me as a main guy after E&C broke up, the fact that he has like 9 championships or something like that is insane to me.
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  • kingofkingz
    kingofkingz Members Posts: 4,323 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Edge
    By far Edge is a better wrestler then Randy.. if the neck injury didn't cut his career short we would still be getting classic matches from him
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