To those who believe in a kind and merciful ? ....why is the world so hostile to life?
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kingblaze84 wrote: »I'm assuming you're speaking from a Christian perspective? Because I'm not even speaking of evil, I'm speaking of the world we live in being hostile to life in general, from mother nature's extremely harsh and cruel predator/prey system to natural parasites and diseases.
Yes, I'm speaking from a Christian perspective. Ok, I misinterpreted you, but I got you now. But I still think that that's only a small part of nature, and even then, nature isn't being cruel - that's just a meaning we assign to it based on our moral perspectives. We also have a hand in this "cruelty" via nurture, from creating? or worsening diseases to poking holes in the Ozone layer.kingblaze84 wrote: »And I get nature is objective, but when animals cry and scream as they're being eaten alive, it means nature co-signs suffering and brutality. And if nature co-signs brutality and suffering, then what the hell kind of ? made this system, assuming a being who made this system is even worthy of being called a ? ?? Cuz it seems more like a demon or several demons made the world the way it is lol.....
I disagree. I don't think that's nature cosigning suffering and brutality. I think that's nature just happening. Nature doesn't care about anything of that. It just exists, and then we do what we want or need to do and deal with the consequences. With respect to your apparent atheistic or agnostic beliefs, I think that when people judge ? , they're already starting off with an error. I don't think that it makes sense to judge ? based on standards that humans have created and adhere to. And yes, ? is merciful, but he's also wrathful (and people tend to forget that, wanting to focus only on the nice things), but how can humans judge ? ? It's supposed to be the other way around.kingblaze84 wrote: »By the way, humans are not truly free beings. Not everyone has free or good choices. Some people have to choose between bad choices and more bad choices, that's not free will at all. What free will exists for a baby born paralyzed and ? , what kind of ? choices does that poor baby have? In my opinion, the extremely harsh nature of the world makes many people look at religion as something of a joke, and legitimizes atheism or non-belief. Your "? " has made a truly sick and twisted world, it's not clear if your ? deserves the honor of being called a ? .
Imo, it doesn't matter what fate hands you. You still have choices, even if those choices are not desirable. You will always have a choice. I still consider that free will. Also, religion has much to say about "harsh" realities, so I wouldn't necessarily say that the harsh natures of the world makes religion look like a joke. I personally think my ? has made a beautiful world, and we have made it truly sick and twisted, but instead of taking responsibility, we blame other things like religion, money, guns, etc. After all, hubris/pride/ego is our original sin.
You don't think nature co-signs suffering and brutality? I strongly disagree with that, didn't nature make animals and humans feel pain? Why is it necessary to feel pain, if nature does not co-sign PAIN, suffering and brutality? Didn't nature MAKE animals brutal, tearing apart pregnant animals and making them scream in pain? Didn't nature make earthquakes despite knowing its creatures would FEEL heartache and pain seeing their children or themselves suffer in agony? Nature absolutely co-signs suffering and brutality, I would agree with you if animals and humans did NOT have the ability to feel pain. It shouldn't be necessary for animals to be screaming in agony and pain as parasites or hyenas tear them apart, or as parasites make a baby's life miserable.
As far as humans and choice, I don't think we ALWAYS have a choice. A baby being BORN paralyzed has what choices in life exactly? My mother is a nurse, and she helps take care of mentally ? children who literally cannot make decisions for themselves. If they do make decisions, it's almost always a bad or foolish one, like walking outside without shoes or clothes in brutally cold weather. What the hell kind of choices in life does someone born paralyzed or mentally ? have? Virtually none. A child born without arms or legs in a very poor nation has nothing but awful choices. This is why free will many times is a total illusion. Original sin shouldn't be effecting helpless children who will only know a life of suffering. It seems mother nature and whatever created it is the sick and twisted one.
I will say though that there are MANY beautiful things about life, without question. My life itself is mostly pleasant, not perfect but good overall. But I've travelled across the country and probably have seen more then I'm supposed to lol -
b1grobtheking wrote: »where is the dude do u want to go to heaven????i saw a video on abortion,i never thought about.it showed the fetus fighting and moving away from the scalpel while the doctor was trying to ? it.thats crazy and sick to do babies like that.then it said black women abort 1 million babies a year.we all have to start making better decisions in reality with my life,your life all of our lives.
Yeah those abortion numbers are pretty wild but the bigger problem is poverty and health in the Black community. Many women can't financially take care of children because they are so poor, and sadly, health issues are a big problem with some too. Many of those babies who are aborted have physical problems and sometimes the birth process can ? the mother. If a mother already has 5 kids and the birth of a sixth one can ? the mother, should the birth process ? the mom and leave 5 kids orphans, especially if there is no father in the picture?
It's always a tough decision. I do agree though that more responsibility should be taken, birth control, condoms, etc -
@kingblaze84
Well...isn't relationships suppose to be one-sided; that there is this "to the point" aspect of things. Either a married couple is "husband and wife" or not. Either a man or woman is the parent of children or not.
The issue is not moral. There are those in Hell who either tried to seek their own righteousness elsewhere or they believed they could "earn" ? 's Favor by obeying His Laws.
But I guess this is your dilemma...you don't believe ? has done anything. The Bible says so, but you don't thinks so. In relationships, there is a matter of trust; a matter of faith...which is what ? calls people to do. If there is no trust...it's not going to matter what ? does. -
alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
Well...isn't relationships suppose to be one-sided; that there is this "to the point" aspect of things. Either a married couple is "husband and wife" or not. Either a man or woman is the parent of children or not.
The issue is not moral. There are those in Hell who either tried to seek their own righteousness elsewhere or they believed they could "earn" ? 's Favor by obeying His Laws.
But I guess this is your dilemma...you don't believe ? has done anything. The Bible says so, but you don't thinks so. In relationships, there is a matter of trust; a matter of faith...which is what ? calls people to do. If there is no trust...it's not going to matter what ? does.
Relationships shouldn't be COMPLETELY one-sided though. I understand relationships in which the man or woman has most of the financial or physical power, but at least people can see each other and speak to each other during the relationship.
For me, trust has to be earned. Trust has to be backed up with action, recent action. If your ? sends people to hell because we feel trust hasn't been earned, then that's your belief. But remember all the other gods and religions that you are rejecting as well. If I end up in hell and you're burning in hell as well, I'll have a good laugh. -
@kingblaze84
Well...why shouldn't it be? If a commitment isn't such where you are for a person 100%, then there is no need to go through it. And ? has spoken. In the Bible, He has on countless occasions...only for mankind to still reject Him.
Trust is earned in what way? You do X, Y and Z and then you will trust somebody...or test their integrity? Someone can fake it though to gain trust only to betray you in the end. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »You don't think nature co-signs suffering and brutality? I strongly disagree with that, didn't nature make animals and humans feel pain? Why is it necessary to feel pain, if nature does not co-sign PAIN, suffering and brutality? Didn't nature MAKE animals brutal, tearing apart pregnant animals and making them scream in pain? Didn't nature make earthquakes despite knowing its creatures would FEEL heartache and pain seeing their children or themselves suffer in agony? Nature absolutely co-signs suffering and brutality, I would agree with you if animals and humans did NOT have the ability to feel pain. It shouldn't be necessary for animals to be screaming in agony and pain as parasites or hyenas tear them apart, or as parasites make a baby's life miserable.
I guess we just have differing opinions then. I think that pain can be necessary (perhaps even for evolution), even if it's undesirable. Also, if pain didn't exist, then the absence of pain (and maybe pleasure) would be, more or less, meaningless or, at least, not as valuable as it is now.kingblaze84 wrote: »As far as humans and choice, I don't think we ALWAYS have a choice. A baby being BORN paralyzed has what choices in life exactly? My mother is a nurse, and she helps take care of mentally ? children who literally cannot make decisions for themselves. If they do make decisions, it's almost always a bad or foolish one, like walking outside without shoes or clothes in brutally cold weather. What the hell kind of choices in life does someone born paralyzed or mentally ? have? Virtually none. A child born without arms or legs in a very poor nation has nothing but awful choices. This is why free will many times is a total illusion. Original sin shouldn't be effecting helpless children who will only know a life of suffering. It seems mother nature and whatever created it is the sick and twisted one.
I agree and disagree. But if you are saying that severely handicapped people generally can't live happy and fulfilling lives (and you very well might not be saying this), then I'd disagree. Different lives? Yes. But unhappy lives? No, imo. There are people who are born blind, and they are happy and take pride in their "affliction." It's us "normal people" who have a problem with their "affliction" and assign pity and sympathy to them when it's not very necessary and even annoying. But yes, the concept of free will is a complicated one.kingblaze84 wrote: »I will say though that there are MANY beautiful things about life, without question. My life itself is mostly pleasant, not perfect but good overall. But I've travelled across the country and probably have seen more then I'm supposed to lol
Glad to hear that you have a mostly pleasant life. And about travelling and seeing the "bad" of this country, yeah, I can only imagine. -
alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
Well...why shouldn't it be? If a commitment isn't such where you are for a person 100%, then there is no need to go through it. And ? has spoken. In the Bible, He has on countless occasions...only for mankind to still reject Him.
Trust is earned in what way? You do X, Y and Z and then you will trust somebody...or test their integrity? Someone can fake it though to gain trust only to betray you in the end.
When I'm in a relationship, I do put 100% of my trust in that person. But how can someone put 100% trust in the Bible ? when there are so many other gods out there that demand trust and allegiance too? To me, it makes more sense to hold my trust and allegiance until ANY ? shows and proves itself. So far, I don't see any of these gods doing that. Notice I'm open to a ? being out there, but I can't put faith in a lazy ? or a wicked one.
How is my trust earned? By testing their integrity, yes. I agree people can fake integrity, but that's why I demand high integrity, not low integrity. Absence in the face of horrors on Earth means the Bible ? has low or zero integrity.
Why should I trust the same ? that made natural viruses and hostile parasites?? Why trust a ? like yours that claims to have created evil and calamity? It's like trusting a child molester with my little cousin. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »You don't think nature co-signs suffering and brutality? I strongly disagree with that, didn't nature make animals and humans feel pain? Why is it necessary to feel pain, if nature does not co-sign PAIN, suffering and brutality? Didn't nature MAKE animals brutal, tearing apart pregnant animals and making them scream in pain? Didn't nature make earthquakes despite knowing its creatures would FEEL heartache and pain seeing their children or themselves suffer in agony? Nature absolutely co-signs suffering and brutality, I would agree with you if animals and humans did NOT have the ability to feel pain. It shouldn't be necessary for animals to be screaming in agony and pain as parasites or hyenas tear them apart, or as parasites make a baby's life miserable.
I guess we just have differing opinions then. I think that pain can be necessary (perhaps even for evolution), even if it's undesirable. Also, if pain didn't exist, then the absence of pain (and maybe pleasure) would be, more or less, meaningless or, at least, not as valuable as it is now.kingblaze84 wrote: »As far as humans and choice, I don't think we ALWAYS have a choice. A baby being BORN paralyzed has what choices in life exactly? My mother is a nurse, and she helps take care of mentally ? children who literally cannot make decisions for themselves. If they do make decisions, it's almost always a bad or foolish one, like walking outside without shoes or clothes in brutally cold weather. What the hell kind of choices in life does someone born paralyzed or mentally ? have? Virtually none. A child born without arms or legs in a very poor nation has nothing but awful choices. This is why free will many times is a total illusion. Original sin shouldn't be effecting helpless children who will only know a life of suffering. It seems mother nature and whatever created it is the sick and twisted one.
I agree and disagree. But if you are saying that severely handicapped people generally can't live happy and fulfilling lives (and you very well might not be saying this), then I'd disagree. Different lives? Yes. But unhappy lives? No, imo. There are people who are born blind, and they are happy and take pride in their "affliction." It's us "normal people" who have a problem with their "affliction" and assign pity and sympathy to them when it's not very necessary and even annoying. But yes, the concept of free will is a complicated one.kingblaze84 wrote: »I will say though that there are MANY beautiful things about life, without question. My life itself is mostly pleasant, not perfect but good overall. But I've travelled across the country and probably have seen more then I'm supposed to lol
Glad to hear that you have a mostly pleasant life. And about travelling and seeing the "bad" of this country, yeah, I can only imagine.
I suppose we do have different philosophies on pain and suffering. To me, great agony and suffering is inefficient and unnecessary to produce better living things. I have no problem with pain existing in itself, but the AMOUNT of pain and suffering around the world is ridiculous and the videos I've seen of babies dealing with horrible parasites and cruel viruses means suffering is embedded in nature's nature. If that makes any sense. But I respect your opinion on pain and suffering in nature, it's just revolting and disgusting how much of it is out there.
And I didn't mean to imply people with severe handicaps can't enjoy their lives, I'm sure some or even many do. I'm just saying that the AMOUNT of free choices they have is very limited and unfair compared to the choices people with legs, normal brains, and full senses have. I used to believe in free will, but since our will is not built equal across the world, it's not really free.
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kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
Well...why shouldn't it be? If a commitment isn't such where you are for a person 100%, then there is no need to go through it. And ? has spoken. In the Bible, He has on countless occasions...only for mankind to still reject Him.
Trust is earned in what way? You do X, Y and Z and then you will trust somebody...or test their integrity? Someone can fake it though to gain trust only to betray you in the end.
When I'm in a relationship, I do put 100% of my trust in that person. But how can someone put 100% trust in the Bible ? when there are so many other gods out there that demand trust and allegiance too? To me, it makes more sense to hold my trust and allegiance until ANY ? shows and proves itself. So far, I don't see any of these gods doing that. Notice I'm open to a ? being out there, but I can't put faith in a lazy ? or a wicked one.
How is my trust earned? By testing their integrity, yes. I agree people can fake integrity, but that's why I demand high integrity, not low integrity. Absence in the face of horrors on Earth means the Bible ? has low or zero integrity.
Why should I trust the same ? that made natural viruses and hostile parasites?? Why trust a ? like yours that claims to have created evil and calamity? It's like trusting a child molester with my little cousin.
The issue is not physical...it's spiritual. There's good, there's evil, and there is sin. We can never discern properly what's good or evil because of it. While you are...and rightfully so...concerned about what harms the body, you are not being keen to what is happening to the soul. Our souls are at a state where we are swayed by the happenings of the world and forming what we believe to be is the way life is instead of trusting in what ? says it is. We are even swayed by what we "want" the Bible to say according to the world.
? isn't demanding...only we are. We want ? to be what we want Him to be. And if's He is not, we want nothing to do with Him...and He has and will leave us alone. -
alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
Well...why shouldn't it be? If a commitment isn't such where you are for a person 100%, then there is no need to go through it. And ? has spoken. In the Bible, He has on countless occasions...only for mankind to still reject Him.
Trust is earned in what way? You do X, Y and Z and then you will trust somebody...or test their integrity? Someone can fake it though to gain trust only to betray you in the end.
When I'm in a relationship, I do put 100% of my trust in that person. But how can someone put 100% trust in the Bible ? when there are so many other gods out there that demand trust and allegiance too? To me, it makes more sense to hold my trust and allegiance until ANY ? shows and proves itself. So far, I don't see any of these gods doing that. Notice I'm open to a ? being out there, but I can't put faith in a lazy ? or a wicked one.
How is my trust earned? By testing their integrity, yes. I agree people can fake integrity, but that's why I demand high integrity, not low integrity. Absence in the face of horrors on Earth means the Bible ? has low or zero integrity.
Why should I trust the same ? that made natural viruses and hostile parasites?? Why trust a ? like yours that claims to have created evil and calamity? It's like trusting a child molester with my little cousin.
The issue is not physical...it's spiritual. There's good, there's evil, and there is sin. We can never discern properly what's good or evil because of it. While you are...and rightfully so...concerned about what harms the body, you are not being keen to what is happening to the soul. Our souls are at a state where we are swayed by the happenings of the world and forming what we believe to be is the way life is instead of trusting in what ? says it is. We are even swayed by what we "want" the Bible to say according to the world.
? isn't demanding...only we are. We want ? to be what we want Him to be. And if's He is not, we want nothing to do with Him...and He has and will leave us alone.
The Bible ? has every right to be an absentee ? that doesn't show itself in the face of natural horrors. However, this means that it's no different or better then the other gods that it claims superiority over. It's just as absent and just as much in hiding as all the other gods these days.
I think the Bible ? is demanding though, based on how you've described it. Isn't it demanding to command all humans to follow and worship it, or be sentenced to a life of eternal damnation? Sounds very demanding to me, considering 70% of the world or more will burn in hellfire forever according to you. -
@kingblaze84
It would only be demanding if there was reason to think Hell is imposed on people. It's like asking a person who is addicted to something to choose sobriety or die. Sobriety is the key to a longer life, but they don't like the idea of being told what to do with their lives so they continue searching for the next high.
Whether you believe it or not, ? is not saying these things as a..."I'll show these sinners whose boss!!!". It is to say that if we keep living like we are, our hearts will take us there not knowing that is where we are going...and spend forever never knowing. -
alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
It would only be demanding if there was reason to think Hell is imposed on people. It's like asking a person who is addicted to something to choose sobriety or die. Sobriety is the key to a longer life, but they don't like the idea of being told what to do with their lives so they continue searching for the next high.
Whether you believe it or not, ? is not saying these things as a..."I'll show these sinners whose boss!!!". It is to say that if we keep living like we are, our hearts will take us there not knowing that is where we are going...and spend forever never knowing.
I see what you're saying but at the end of the day, you have yet to prove there is only one ? , while thousands of gods have been recorded throughout history. So when the Bible ? says worship him or face eternal fire, it's extremely demanding because we don't see any proof your Bible ? is any more real compared to the thousands of gods that have come before him.
I can't see the Bible ? or Zeus or Apollo, so how are 4 billion people on Earth supposed to "know" what the truth is? People who are otherwise good, honorable and decent people will still burn in eternal hellfire if they don't believe right? The irony of that is the Bible ? can't even prove that it is honorable or good itself! According to you and other Christians, the Bible ? is responsible for baby birth defects, because ? is in control of everything. So isn't your ? evil, considering all the horrors on Earth your ? is responsible for? Why should humans worship a borderline demon ? like yours, that admits to creating HORRIFIC and MONSTROUS parasites? Where is the proof your ? is good??
https://youtu.be/9LFZKoYuHeo -
@kingblaze84
My points are not to present a physical image or perform miracles...just tell you what the Bible says. The gospel message is for those who believe ? has done something about sin. If you don't believe it, then there is nothing I can do from this point...other than prayer for understanding on your part as well as mine. -
alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
My points are not to present a physical image or perform miracles...just tell you what the Bible says. The gospel message is for those who believe ? has done something about sin. If you don't believe it, then there is nothing I can do from this point...other than prayer for understanding on your part as well as mine.
I totally respect that. I'm just wondering where the proof is that your ? did something about sin lol.....especially since I am in the physical form now, not the soul form. I do understand faith is what it all comes down to, but considering all the horrors on Earth from natural means, I'm not sure if I can ever wrap my mind around a ? that says original sin is the reason humans have issues on Earth, but yet the Bible ? doesn't seem like a nice and friendly ? itself.
It seems hollow to say humans are sinful and bad, yet the Bible ? doesn't seem any less guilty of bad actions itself.........it might be guilty of worse crimes!!!
Interesting convo though! Pray for me lol -
? hates ?
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environment seems hostile to man because the nature of reality has changed
this whole argument is self centered and prideful because it come down to a belief that because the world does not work the way I want it to then there must be a problem with ? . there is death and there is suffering built into the current reality why should there not be???
i read this about ten times an keep coming back to it. a little more can be added to this...but this does sum up alot.
maybe entitlement needs to be thrown in there.
and things are not the way we want them to look but we have what we need and are where are supposed to be. -
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2stepz_ahead wrote: »environment seems hostile to man because the nature of reality has changed
this whole argument is self centered and prideful because it come down to a belief that because the world does not work the way I want it to then there must be a problem with ? . there is death and there is suffering built into the current reality why should there not be???
i read this about ten times an keep coming back to it. a little more can be added to this...but this does sum up alot.
maybe entitlement needs to be thrown in there.
and things are not the way we want them to look but we have what we need and are where are supposed to be.
But what about all the humans who don't have the basics of life, good health, good water, food, etc?
And how do humans have everything they need, many people can't even grow food because droughts and parasites make growing food impossible. Flooding, hurricanes, natural parasites, and earthquakes have ruined the lives and environment of millions. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »environment seems hostile to man because the nature of reality has changed
this whole argument is self centered and prideful because it come down to a belief that because the world does not work the way I want it to then there must be a problem with ? . there is death and there is suffering built into the current reality why should there not be???
i read this about ten times an keep coming back to it. a little more can be added to this...but this does sum up alot.
maybe entitlement needs to be thrown in there.
and things are not the way we want them to look but we have what we need and are where are supposed to be.
But what about all the humans who don't have the basics of life, good health, good water, food, etc?
And how do humans have everything they need, many people can't even grow food because droughts and parasites make growing food impossible.
I think he means we have everything we need as a species. A lot of the people SUFFERING really don't need to be ESPECIALLY with the technology we have today technically WE could educate and feed more people that we do today. WE don't because our priorities are not in that place, we rather spend millions on buying a new i-phone every 2 years. in any case people have to die and Just because the world/? /nature does not conform to your perfect ideal or understanding of it does not mean that things as not the way they have to be. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »environment seems hostile to man because the nature of reality has changed
this whole argument is self centered and prideful because it come down to a belief that because the world does not work the way I want it to then there must be a problem with ? . there is death and there is suffering built into the current reality why should there not be???
i read this about ten times an keep coming back to it. a little more can be added to this...but this does sum up alot.
maybe entitlement needs to be thrown in there.
and things are not the way we want them to look but we have what we need and are where are supposed to be.
But what about all the humans who don't have the basics of life, good health, good water, food, etc?
And how do humans have everything they need, many people can't even grow food because droughts and parasites make growing food impossible.
I think he means we have everything we need as a species. A lot of the people SUFFERING really don't need to be ESPECIALLY with the technology we have today technically WE could educate and feed more people that we do today. WE don't because our priorities are not in that place, we rather spend millions on buying a new i-phone every 2 years. in any case people have to die and Just because the world/? /nature does not conform to your perfect ideal or understanding of it does not mean that things as not the way they have to be.
I understand people can feed the entire world if it wanted to, but that's not my main issue.
My main issue is the NATURAL FORCES that CONSTANTLY work against humans and other animals in the world. It's a cruel and unnecessarily harsh system, the predator prey relationship especially. Parasites that tear apart the flesh of living babies, droughts that make environments barren, which makes people lack enough water to drink and use for their own use.
I don't expect a perfect world, but this world especially is beyond ridiculous in the suffering it without question co-signs. Parasites that tear apart a baby's brain as it is ALIVE is NOT an ideal world. The world was not designed well, let's face it. -
"Genetic diseases afflict not only mankind, but also all other animal species, and all other forms of life down to the simplest bacteria and harmless single-cell lifeforms floating in the oceans. In all these species and in plants there are seemingly endless cases of genetic flaws and problems.
Perhaps the best indicator of how badly life is 'designed' is the stark reality that 99% of all species have gone extinct. The food chain requires that nearly every living being survives by killing other creatures to eat for food, and species naturally expand to use up all local resources, limiting the success of other species. Everywhere in nature, predator-and-prey chains are central to life. This isn't a design for life, but a design of strife and violence. The genetic defects of nature, and the violence and strife of the natural world, indicate that life was not designed by a good-natured creator ? but maybe by an evil one. "
--Vexen Crabtree
Not saying I totally agree with that famous atheist, but so far, it makes more sense than the religious arguments I've seen here. It's hard to imagine a "good natured ? " making the world we live in today. It should be noted some ancient gnostics like the Manicheans believed an evil ? created this world. Who knows.
