That's more like it, Trump
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in 2012 i voted for Gary Johnson and if the election comes down to a couple of unpalatable choices (let's say Trump versus Clinton), i would likely do the same.@janklow curious to know who you support?
early in the primary season i would have been more for Jim Webb on the D side and Rand Paul on the R side, but you see where things are now. the Democrats have enshrined gun control in their platform and Clinton/O'Malley have done their damnedest to drag Sanders left on guns, so that sucks. the Republicans throw a lot of red meat to their base and i am not a social conservative, so THAT sucks.
in life i generally want BOTH parties to run the most palatable candidates, so i would like to see Kasich/Rubio versus Sanders. i have issues with all of these candidates so it is what it is.
actually, i do know quite a few people who are Democrats/left-leaning independents/etc who are either pro-gun rights or simply don't care, but they vote Dem or whatever because of other issues. which is what it is; we all have different priorities. so i get that.You always came off as if you lean conservative because of your staunch gun right support (even though truth be told I don't support tighter gun regulation either and I'm not really too conservative myself)
gun rights is definitely the thing i care about; i'm from a deep-blue state where the legislature beats on gun owners for political gain (as always, ? you, O'Malley) and my personal reps could often give a ? less about me, so i don't vote for Democrats here. but if someone's not ? about guns then i probably get a lot less salty immediately. -
again... do you have a single argument to this effect that is NOT "third term of GW?"kingblaze84 wrote: »I still remember the horrors of the GWB era, and his CATASTROPHIC foreign policy. Jeb Bush already has signed up some old Bush administrators onto his campaign and has said GWB will have sway over his administration if elected.
citation possibly needed as Trump is a notorious lie-teller on most all issues.kingblaze84 wrote: »Trump is far from perfect but at least he was against the war in Iraq after it started. Even before it started, he said he didn't think it was a good idea-
also, let's be clear: this is not an argument that you should vote for Jeb Bush; this is an argument that Trump is a fundamentally less-legitimate choice.
Well Jeb Bush giving high praise to GWB is enough to frighten me and apparently, enough to scare many others as well. Especially independents like myself. George W didn't have a clue then and he doesn't have a clue now, so Jeb Bush praising his brother is scary as ? .
As far as Trump being against the war in Iraq, he said after the war started that it was a terrible mistake and even went as far to say George W Bush should have been impeached (something I also agree with). I admit he didn't say this before the war, but he was never a cheerleader for the war either, unlike Jeb.
I also agree Trump for me is not a legit choice, but in COMPARISON to Jeb Bush and even Ted Cruz, Trump is much better. At least Trump respects Planned Parenthood, something Ted Cruz does not respect, which is shameful.
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Every candidate sucks. Would vote Republican just so I could deploy and get some more of them sweet benefits but honestly can't bring myself to do that. Refuse to support Burnie and Hillary is literally the textook lie in your face candidate say whatever is needed to get the vote.
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The_Jackal wrote: »Every candidate sucks. Would vote Republican just so I could deploy and get some more of them sweet benefits but honestly can't bring myself to do that. Refuse to support Burnie and Hillary is literally the textook lie in your face candidate say whatever is needed to get the vote.
Yeah it sucks all the candidates this year have so many flaws. Most likely, I'll be voting 3rd party again. I respect a lot of what Bernie says but I don't think Republicans or Democrats will allow him to gain much of what he wants. His plans are too expensive and with 19 trillion in debt, I'm not sure if America can realistically do a lot of what Bernie wants.
I've already ruled out Hilary, her plan of a no-fly zone over Syria could bring on a world war. Her judgment sucks, though I do like some of her domestic policies. -
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lovely. however, here is the question i am asking you: "do you have a single argument to this effect that is NOT "third term of GW?""kingblaze84 wrote: »Well Jeb Bush giving high praise to GWB is enough to frighten me and apparently, enough to scare many others as well. Especially independents like myself. George W didn't have a clue then and he doesn't have a clue now, so Jeb Bush praising his brother is scary as ? .
he's already halfway walked back that impeachment remark, because the thing is, Trump isn't making reasoned commentary on the Iraq War, he's saying ? to rile up Jeb. it's FUNNY, but it's fundamentally just ? -talking.kingblaze84 wrote: »As far as Trump being against the war in Iraq, he said after the war started that it was a terrible mistake and even went as far to say George W Bush should have been impeached (something I also agree with). I admit he didn't say this before the war, but he was never a cheerleader for the war either, unlike Jeb.
also, let's note this contradiction:Trump said on the debate stage:
Who are we fighting for? What are we doing? We have to rebuild our country. But we have to — I’m the only one on this stage that said, “Do not go into Iraq. Do not attack Iraq.” Nobody else on this stage said that. And I said it loud and strong. And I was in the private sector. I wasn’t a politician, fortunately. But I said it, and I said it loud and clear, “You’ll destabilize the Middle East.” That’s exactly what happened.
Given Trump’s phrasing, any such warning would have had to precede the March 19, 2003, invasion. Yet numerous fact–checkers have strained to find the supporting citations, with no luck whatsoever. Sure, Trump evaluated the war as a “mess” several days after its start; that qualifies as punditry, not visionary leadership.
On NBC News’s “Meet the Press” this morning, moderator Chuck Todd was lying in wait. A talking-point machine, Trump held forth in self-praise, “I’m the only one on the stage that said we should not go into Iraq. That the war in Iraq is a mistake. Everyone else said, ‘Oh, they’re all–‘ you know, all of the other people on the stage, I should get points for vision,” he said.
Oh, no you shouldn’t, said Todd, in effect. “Well, let me, but actually let me pause you there,” said the moderator. After more bluster from Trump, Todd put it to him, saying that PolitiFact — indeed, “none of us” — has been able to dig up an instance in which Trump ripped the invasion before the invasion.
The risible response from Trump came, as always, with flair:
Well, I did it in 2003, I said it before that. Don’t forget, I wasn’t a politician. So people didn’t write everything I said. I was a businessperson. I was, as they say, world-class businessperson. I built a great company, I employed thousands of people. So I’m not a politician. But if you look at 2003, there are articles. If you look the 2004, there are articles.
In fact, I saw somebody commenting on it last night, that Trump really was against the war. I was against it. Look, I’m the most militaristic person. I’m going to build the military bigger, better, stronger, hopefully we’ll never have to use it, but nobody’s going to mess with us. But I will say this, the war in Iraq, it was a mistake. Anybody would have realized Iran and Iraq, they used to fight. They go back, forth. Chuck, you destabilize the Middle East. I’m the only one that called it. I was the only one that called it.
Bolding added to highlight a typical Donald Trump contradiction. Whereas last night he said that his pre-war opposition was “loud and strong,” he told Todd that “people didn’t write” what he said. Which would make it anything but “loud and strong.”kingblaze84 wrote: »I also agree Trump for me is not a legit choice, but in COMPARISON to Jeb Bush and even Ted Cruz, Trump is much better. At least Trump respects Planned Parenthood, something Ted Cruz does not respect, which is shameful.
Bush and Cruz are more legitimate choices who have policy positions that make you not want to vote for them. again, this isn't the "why you owe Jeb! your vote" position. Trump is an unserious loudmouth whose position is basically "i'm an outsider and i will do everything the best!" -
the best part of this is listening to Clinton basically say "don't vote Bernie, because he can't get the Republicans to let him do anything, but vote for me because i can!"kingblaze84 wrote: »I respect a lot of what Bernie says but I don't think Republicans or Democrats will allow him to gain much of what he wants. His plans are too expensive and with 19 trillion in debt, I'm not sure if America can realistically do a lot of what Bernie wants.
...and that's based on what, exactly, Hillary? -
lovely. however, here is the question i am asking you: "do you have a single argument to this effect that is NOT "third term of GW?""kingblaze84 wrote: »Well Jeb Bush giving high praise to GWB is enough to frighten me and apparently, enough to scare many others as well. Especially independents like myself. George W didn't have a clue then and he doesn't have a clue now, so Jeb Bush praising his brother is scary as ? .
he's already halfway walked back that impeachment remark, because the thing is, Trump isn't making reasoned commentary on the Iraq War, he's saying ? to rile up Jeb. it's FUNNY, but it's fundamentally just ? -talking.kingblaze84 wrote: »As far as Trump being against the war in Iraq, he said after the war started that it was a terrible mistake and even went as far to say George W Bush should have been impeached (something I also agree with). I admit he didn't say this before the war, but he was never a cheerleader for the war either, unlike Jeb.
also, let's note this contradiction:Trump said on the debate stage:
Who are we fighting for? What are we doing? We have to rebuild our country. But we have to — I’m the only one on this stage that said, “Do not go into Iraq. Do not attack Iraq.” Nobody else on this stage said that. And I said it loud and strong. And I was in the private sector. I wasn’t a politician, fortunately. But I said it, and I said it loud and clear, “You’ll destabilize the Middle East.” That’s exactly what happened.
Given Trump’s phrasing, any such warning would have had to precede the March 19, 2003, invasion. Yet numerous fact–checkers have strained to find the supporting citations, with no luck whatsoever. Sure, Trump evaluated the war as a “mess” several days after its start; that qualifies as punditry, not visionary leadership.
On NBC News’s “Meet the Press” this morning, moderator Chuck Todd was lying in wait. A talking-point machine, Trump held forth in self-praise, “I’m the only one on the stage that said we should not go into Iraq. That the war in Iraq is a mistake. Everyone else said, ‘Oh, they’re all–‘ you know, all of the other people on the stage, I should get points for vision,” he said.
Oh, no you shouldn’t, said Todd, in effect. “Well, let me, but actually let me pause you there,” said the moderator. After more bluster from Trump, Todd put it to him, saying that PolitiFact — indeed, “none of us” — has been able to dig up an instance in which Trump ripped the invasion before the invasion.
The risible response from Trump came, as always, with flair:
Well, I did it in 2003, I said it before that. Don’t forget, I wasn’t a politician. So people didn’t write everything I said. I was a businessperson. I was, as they say, world-class businessperson. I built a great company, I employed thousands of people. So I’m not a politician. But if you look at 2003, there are articles. If you look the 2004, there are articles.
In fact, I saw somebody commenting on it last night, that Trump really was against the war. I was against it. Look, I’m the most militaristic person. I’m going to build the military bigger, better, stronger, hopefully we’ll never have to use it, but nobody’s going to mess with us. But I will say this, the war in Iraq, it was a mistake. Anybody would have realized Iran and Iraq, they used to fight. They go back, forth. Chuck, you destabilize the Middle East. I’m the only one that called it. I was the only one that called it.
Bolding added to highlight a typical Donald Trump contradiction. Whereas last night he said that his pre-war opposition was “loud and strong,” he told Todd that “people didn’t write” what he said. Which would make it anything but “loud and strong.”kingblaze84 wrote: »I also agree Trump for me is not a legit choice, but in COMPARISON to Jeb Bush and even Ted Cruz, Trump is much better. At least Trump respects Planned Parenthood, something Ted Cruz does not respect, which is shameful.
Bush and Cruz are more legitimate choices who have policy positions that make you not want to vote for them. again, this isn't the "why you owe Jeb! your vote" position. Trump is an unserious loudmouth whose position is basically "i'm an outsider and i will do everything the best!"
I see what you're saying but I still give Trump a little credit for being against the Iraq War quickly after it started because there were still fools in the media who said the war was going well in 2004. Jeb! on the other hand, said as recently as last year that going to war was the right decision. Only when public outrage started building did he eventually "change" his mind. But being supportive of GWB policies, as I've said before, is more then enough for me to dislike Jeb and hope Trump and others clobber him some more.
Once again, I wouldn't vote for Trump but the policies of GWB disgust me and Jeb! attaching himself to those failed policies will disgust a ton of independents out there. I look forward to the day he drops out. -
the best part of this is listening to Clinton basically say "don't vote Bernie, because he can't get the Republicans to let him do anything, but vote for me because i can!"kingblaze84 wrote: »I respect a lot of what Bernie says but I don't think Republicans or Democrats will allow him to gain much of what he wants. His plans are too expensive and with 19 trillion in debt, I'm not sure if America can realistically do a lot of what Bernie wants.
...and that's based on what, exactly, Hillary?
I wonder the same thing, it's not like she got Hillary Care to pass. -
you can give Trump credit for the position, but it would be much more to his credit if his claims about his opposition were more supported. conceding that the war was a mistake, it's great him to say he's always been loudly opposed to it, but he basically will say ANYTHING if he thinks it gets him a positive reaction from voters.kingblaze84 wrote: »I see what you're saying but I still give Trump a little credit for being against the Iraq War quickly after it started because there were still fools in the media who said the war was going well in 2004.
right... but we're not talking about why you should vote for Bush, as i have noted quite a few times. what i'm asking is if you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?""kingblaze84 wrote: »Jeb! on the other hand, said as recently as last year that going to war was the right decision. Only when public outrage started building did he eventually "change" his mind. But being supportive of GWB policies, as I've said before, is more then enough for me to dislike Jeb and hope Trump and others clobber him some more.
he'll drop out only when one of the other establishment candidates starts getting the lion's share of the establishment votes. Rubio is winning the 538's "endorsement primary" right now, but Bush was long ahead on that score (not that it was doing much for him in popular elections, but you know what i'm saying here).kingblaze84 wrote: »I look forward to the day he drops out. -
you can give Trump credit for the position, but it would be much more to his credit if his claims about his opposition were more supported. conceding that the war was a mistake, it's great him to say he's always been loudly opposed to it, but he basically will say ANYTHING if he thinks it gets him a positive reaction from voters.kingblaze84 wrote: »I see what you're saying but I still give Trump a little credit for being against the Iraq War quickly after it started because there were still fools in the media who said the war was going well in 2004.
right... but we're not talking about why you should vote for Bush, as i have noted quite a few times. what i'm asking is if you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?""kingblaze84 wrote: »Jeb! on the other hand, said as recently as last year that going to war was the right decision. Only when public outrage started building did he eventually "change" his mind. But being supportive of GWB policies, as I've said before, is more then enough for me to dislike Jeb and hope Trump and others clobber him some more.
he'll drop out only when one of the other establishment candidates starts getting the lion's share of the establishment votes. Rubio is winning the 538's "endorsement primary" right now, but Bush was long ahead on that score (not that it was doing much for him in popular elections, but you know what i'm saying here).kingblaze84 wrote: »I look forward to the day he drops out.
I agree Trump will say almost anything if he thinks it will get a positive reaction, but to be fair, he several times has said things that are not really popular. Like banning all Muslims from entering the country for example, he got a lot of negative heat for saying that. But among Republicans, his idea is popular, so I do see your point. Thing is, most politicians will say anything to get elected too, Trump just takes it to the extreme.
And my argument against Bush stands as it is, he's too close to GWB. For me, and apparently many others, that's enough. I won't bother mentioning the rest of Jeb's ideas that sound terrible, including his idiotic idea of a no-fly zone in Syria and did I mention him being close to George W? -
well, i think it's also an issue where it needs to be popular enough to win a primary (30% seems to do it) because Trump isn't even thinking "oh, this won't really be a great thing to say when i'm running in a general election."kingblaze84 wrote: »I agree Trump will say almost anything if he thinks it will get a positive reaction, but to be fair, he several times has said things that are not really popular. Like banning all Muslims from entering the country for example, he got a lot of negative heat for saying that. But among Republicans, his idea is popular, so I do see your point. Thing is, most politicians will say anything to get elected too, Trump just takes it to the extreme.
not the point as i have repeatedly said it's not a question of convincing you to vote for Bush. it's a question of do you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?"kingblaze84 wrote: »And my argument against Bush stands as it is, he's too close to GWB. For me, and apparently many others, that's enough. I won't bother mentioning the rest of Jeb's ideas that sound terrible, including his idiotic idea of a no-fly zone in Syria and did I mention him being close to George W?
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well, i think it's also an issue where it needs to be popular enough to win a primary (30% seems to do it) because Trump isn't even thinking "oh, this won't really be a great thing to say when i'm running in a general election."kingblaze84 wrote: »I agree Trump will say almost anything if he thinks it will get a positive reaction, but to be fair, he several times has said things that are not really popular. Like banning all Muslims from entering the country for example, he got a lot of negative heat for saying that. But among Republicans, his idea is popular, so I do see your point. Thing is, most politicians will say anything to get elected too, Trump just takes it to the extreme.
not the point as i have repeatedly said it's not a question of convincing you to vote for Bush. it's a question of do you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?"kingblaze84 wrote: »And my argument against Bush stands as it is, he's too close to GWB. For me, and apparently many others, that's enough. I won't bother mentioning the rest of Jeb's ideas that sound terrible, including his idiotic idea of a no-fly zone in Syria and did I mention him being close to George W?
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images7/2006_war_photos_8/us_iraq_raid_kills_3_people.jpe
There's a reason Jeb Bush is polling dead last in South Carolina, his closeness to GW Bush is the ONLY argument I need. -
you think the Iraq War is why he's polling poorly?kingblaze84 wrote: »There's a reason Jeb Bush is polling dead last in South Carolina, his closeness to GW Bush is the ONLY argument I need.
but let me repeat myself since you are afraid to answer this question: i have repeatedly said it's not a question of convincing you to vote for Bush. do you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?" -
fucc all bushes
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you think the Iraq War is why he's polling poorly?kingblaze84 wrote: »There's a reason Jeb Bush is polling dead last in South Carolina, his closeness to GW Bush is the ONLY argument I need.
but let me repeat myself since you are afraid to answer this question: i have repeatedly said it's not a question of convincing you to vote for Bush. do you have a single argument against Bush that is NOT "third term of GW?"
I have no need for another argument. Jeb Bush supports a terrible, horrible man. That's enough. And I do believe the war in Iraq is the main reason America has little use for another Bush, and why Jeb is polling in dead last place among Republicans and independents. -
I love how people act as thought Iraq was a perfectly stable country and Sadden was a just leader before the Iraq War happened
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The_Jackal wrote: »I love how people act as thought Iraq was a perfectly stable country and Sadden was a just leader before the Iraq War happened
Saddam was a bad guy, but he kept Iraq a lot more stable then it is now, before cowboy, wackjob Americans ? up the country and destroyed its infrastructure, bankrupting a sovereign nation. Also, the refugee crises was not nearly as bad as it is now compared to when Saddam was around. 4.5 million refugees and counting from Iraq since the stupid ass war.
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He kept the country stable by using oppression, torture, fear, and mass killings. For someone who was against terrorism in the other thread surprising you cosign him just because he kepy it "stable." ? saying he kept ithe stable is like saying ? or Starling kept their nations stabke
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The_Jackal wrote: »He kept the country stable by using oppression, torture, fear, and mass killings. For someone who was against terrorism in the other thread surprising you cosign him just because he kepy it "stable." ? saying he kept ithe stable is like saying ? or Starling kept their nations stabke
George W Bush was a blood thirsty madman himself who also supported torture, oppression and fear. So everything you said means what exactly? At least Saddam kept his nation stable and terror groups and refugees weren't out of control like they are now. American cowboys on the other hand are famous for the chaos and mayhem they spread from country to country these days.
Considering GWB co-signed torture, massive civilian deaths and destroying infrastructure with cancer causing weapons, hillbilly, cowboy American soldiers were even MORE bloodthirsty then Saddam Hussein. No wonder Iraqis created ISIS LOL
--Good job, George W Bush. Thanks for all the enemies you have created worldwide, and thank you for all the refugees and cancer patients in Iraq and the Middle East, and their children who now want revenge against the Great Satan America. Thank you so much Bush. -
I never even said anything about Bush don't deflect cause I feel Bush was his own kind of oppressor just think it's crazy how you can cosign a terrorist like Sadden just because he kept the control stable by stifling human rights
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A vote on the war in iraq is so damn inconsequential.. that ? doesnt denote leadership.. someone people used the "intelligence" to guide them in their vote for.. others didnt. That should be held at the feet of Bush and his team not anyone on the outside.. It certainly doesnt speak to their abilities as the next commander in chief.. So Bernie and Trump can stop using this as a Bachlelors degree when they didnt even goto college so to speak....
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The_Jackal wrote: »I never even said anything about Bush don't deflect cause I feel Bush was his own kind of oppressor just think it's crazy how you can cosign a terrorist like Sadden just because he kept the control stable by stifling human rights
I never said Saddam was a good guy, he definitely had his flaws. But it would be better if he was in charge of Iraq now compared to the mental retardation of American foreign policy. -
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@zzombie
you see Trump won evangelicals in South Carolina...it's a wrap. He's getting the nomination
