Sports Trump: Colin Cowherd and the racial dog-whistling of John Wall

playmaker88
playmaker88 Members Posts: 67,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
http://mashable.com/2016/05/06/colin-cowherd-john-wall/#2VpGt6y6ugqt
Sam Laird

Colin Cowherd finally apologized. On air. It drew gasps, and came only after passionate hectoring by arguably the most famous person in sports media. You can see the reluctance on Cowherd's face as he says the words: "I apologize right now to John Wall."

And so ends the extended pillorying of Wall, an ascendent NBA superstar, by Cowherd, one of the loudest voices in sports-talk radio.

Maybe. At least for now.

But this isn't really about Cowherd and Wall. Wall could have been anyone. Cowherd's words — repeatedly painting Wall with tired stereotypes and using them to draw vast generalizations about his character — represent much more.

Cowherd's obsession with denigrating Wall offers a gives a look into how norms and boundaries along racial lines are policed in America. It's a wide open window offering a glimpse into how sports are used to enforce larger societal prejudices for personal gain.

It's also an entry-level course in how words that ostensibly mean one thing are used to convey another for personal gain. In a whacked-out election year, there's more than a whiff of familiarity to all this.

Yes, we're looking at Donald Trump.

Cowherd, now with Fox Sports, first fixated on Wall during the player's rookie season in 2010, back when Cowherd was at ESPN. Wall had the temerity to dance (aside: remember "The Dougie"!?) during pre-game intros. Cowherd's had an obsession with Wall ever since.

After being pestered this week by Bill Simmons, a guest on his show, Cowherd finally offered a public apology to Wall following years of abuse.

Soon after Cowherd's apology Keely Diven of CSN Mid-Atlantic compiled a list of some of the radio host's rants against the Washington Wizards point guard and three-time All-Star. Here's a small taste.

First, the "Dougie" rant that started it all in 2010:

Before the game started, he spent 34 seconds doing the Dougie. That tells me all I need to know about J-Wow. Then he opened his mouth later and confirmed it: not a sharp guy ...

J Wow's 37-second 'Yo dawg look at me I'm the man [dance]', and his wild, out-of-control style ... He's gonna end up on the Iverson, Francis, Starbury: great stats, nine All-Star teams, never play with good smart players and an elite head coach. He's gonna drive people nuts.

It's not robbing the bank, it's that you planned it. It's not just doing the Doggie [sic] for 35 seconds, it's that you really thought before the game, this is gonna be super cool and people will like me. The wrong people ...

My daughter's 10. Ten years old. She knows the difference between right and wrong ... The haves get it early, the have-nots never do

Now here's another from the same year.

I'm a big believer, when it comes to quarterbacks and point guards. Who's your dad? Who's your dad? ... Strong families equal strong leaders. Talent? Overrated. Leadership? Underrated ...

(Wall's father, by the way, died of cancer when Wall was eight years old. Wall is by most accounts a good and hard-working professional from a tough background.)

Not all of Cowherd's barrages against Wall were so obviously tinged with racial undertones. But, as Diven correctly notes for CSN, the worst of Cowherd's reasoning "force-fits one of the league's most dynamic figures into a lazy, racist trope of the black player who is physically superior but intellectually flawed."
Let's widen the lens

Wall at a press conference this season.

Image: Nick Wass/AP

Meanwhile, America's through-the-looking-glass election cycle this year has cast a new spotlight on an old phrase: Dog whistling.

It's saying one thing to the population at large while delivering a coded message to a smaller group. It's speaking in general terms, while "winking and nodding," as MSNBC's Joy Reid phrased it in March, to your true intended audience.

It's Donald Trump lamenting "you can't have a rally in a major city in this country without violence or potential violence" — but really vilifying urban-dwelling minorities to his largely white supporters.

It's Cowherd calling Wall "not a sharp guy," putting the words "Yo dawg" in Wall's mouth, baselessly bringing up Wall's father to spotlight supposed shortcoming as a player, implying the adult Wall can't match Cowherd's young daughter when discerning right from wrong, et cetera and so forth. It's saying all of this supposedly about Wall, but really ascribing to him tired stereotypes that have been used to smear black men.

This isn't to say Cowherd himself is a racist, although you can bet a segment of his audience is racist. (His show, by the way is called "The Herd.") Cowherd is a professional provocateur. He hates on many people — hating is his thing, his schtick.

Maybe that's a fine schtick — it's "just sports," right? But when racial dog-whistles and stereotypes that have been perversely baked into the American psyche for centuries are employed to stoke passions and boost ratings, there's a problem.
Just sports, or something more?

Wall took his mother to the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner in April.

Image: Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

Sports as an arena for policing cultural boundaries is hardly new or exclusive to the Cowherd-Wall dynamic. Acknowledged openly or not, there are racial undertones to so many sports stories — from the NBA dress code, to Jose Bautista's bat flip in last year's MLB playoffs and far more. But Cowherd railing against Wall for years at seemingly every opportunity brings the issue into unique focus.

Also worth noting is that Cowherd's treatment of Wall fits into a behavioral pattern for the radio host. He was widely criticized last summer for remarks about Dominican baseball players, for example. For further reading, click over to a Deadspin post also from last summer called "Remember All Those Other Times Colin Cowherd Said Racist ? on ESPN"?

But let's bring our attention back to this week. Cowherd has apologized to Wall, for what nothing that's worth. His bizarre one-man crusade against one of the NBA's brightest young stars appears to have ended.

But Cowherd will likely fixate on a new target sooner than later. Because this isn't about John Wall. It's about saying one thing and meaning another. It's about policing false boundaries and perpetuating specious stereotypes. It's about stoking fear and loathing to pull more angry people into your fold.

Does that sound familiar, America?

Maybe this story isn't "just sports," after all.

One election from the presidency.

Good read
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Comments

  • Chi-Town Bully
    Chi-Town Bully Members Posts: 29,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But these ? say he's the best
  • yahwehprofet
    yahwehprofet Members Posts: 976 ✭✭✭✭
    """It's saying one thing to the population at large while delivering a coded message to a smaller group. It's speaking in general terms, while "winking and nodding," as MSNBC's Joy Reid phrased it in March, to your true intended audience""""


    ETHER... This type of fuckery happens everyday..
  • The Recipe
    The Recipe Members Posts: 10,570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This the same cat that said Durant would be a bust because of how much he bench presses lmfao he is an idiot.
  • Rampage12
    Rampage12 Members Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Recipe wrote: »
    This the same cat that said Durant would be a bust because of how much he bench presses lmfao he is an idiot.

    I know he has long ass arms which hinder him, but that's still despicable that a grown ass man can't bench 95 ? pounds. I remember Sebastian Telfair couldn't bench 95 either.
  • MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14
    MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14 Members Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? outta here Cowherd been brought up other black point guards he would take over wall. And by the way how did Washington do in the keystone light eastern conference this season? John Wall came into the league immature an inexperienced and Colin was just calling that ? out. He has matured slightly since then and as a player improved but he still ain't a top 5 guard in the league.

    Colin has called out white college basketball fans for watching Indiana Hoosiers ? ass basketball but not watching the NBA. He has also defended the idea of those same fans that think the NBA is a bunch of thugs by pointing out how post palace pretty much no pacers have gotten arrested.

    As far as the Bat flip situation colin called out old white baseball fans for being so offended by it. He has told old as baseball fans to embrace puig and harper and other personalities which will help get more young people watching baseball again. He also pointed out how older players like babe ruth showboated and did ? worse and got passes.

    You wanna feel some type of way about how he treated wall then fair enough. But he is not even close to being the donald trump of spots radio. Anyone who thinks that doesn't watch his show.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.
  • lamontbdc
    lamontbdc Members Posts: 18,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yea he was dead wrong but this ? kinda old the apology and ? all occurred last year.. oh ok it was bought up b/c Wall was at the white house dinner.

    he said some foul ? about Sean Taylor after he died and remember Stephen A came and backed him on that ? .
  • MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14
    MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14 Members Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.

    ima end this here

    im not sure why u bring up 19.9 and 17 when i just said the same thing lol

    u dont watch basketball bruh.

    if u did ud know that wall and a healthy wizards were a top 5 seed last year, this year they've been dealing with injuries and the east improved.

    idk about the good will colin has built in your eyes or ur examples of colin pandering to us, that ? sho does not get ratings and that fool is a clown for goin at john wall or anyone in the first place, u not bout to justify bruh bring up wall's dead dad cuz he's a kid doin a ? dougie when that has NOTHING to do with sports, ? outta here.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    and in case ? try to say the east wasnt at least a tad bit stronger, wall still lead the wizards to .500 and finished tenth place

    that would have got em a 6th seed last year
  • JJ_Evans
    JJ_Evans Members Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Colin Cowherd and Skip Bayless both being under the FOXnews umbrella doesn't surprise me at all, considering their political leanings.

    One thing that I will give Cowherd props for is that he was dead right about Johnny Manziel when he said teams would be stupid to draft him.
  • MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14
    MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14 Members Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.

    ima end this here

    im not sure why u bring up 19.9 and 17 when i just said the same thing lol

    u dont watch basketball bruh.

    if u did ud know that wall and a healthy wizards were a top 5 seed last year, this year they've been dealing with injuries and the east improved.

    idk about the good will colin has built in your eyes or ur examples of colin pandering to us, that ? sho does not get ratings and that fool is a clown for goin at john wall or anyone in the first place, u not bout to justify bruh bring up wall's dead dad cuz he's a kid doin a ? dougie when that has NOTHING to do with sports, ? outta here.

    19.9 is not 20. You can't round up my ? lol. And he has never averaged 20 points per game in any single season. You can't end anything because you are pointing out one isolated example of colin and ignoring my multiple examples of Colin actually taking the side of the black sport or player.
  • elgato
    elgato Members Posts: 216 ✭✭
    Why do yall keep talking about John Wall's maturity? You make it sound like he fights with coaches like Demarcus Cousins, throws his team under the bus in interviews like RG3, and gets arrested like Johnny Manziel. John Wall does none of those things. In what ways has he gotten into more trouble than his peers (Westbrook, Kyrie, etc.)?

    FYI the wizards not making the playoffs this year has less to do with Wall and more to do with 1) their coach Randy Wittman has no business being a coach and 2) their owner/GM pushed for them to be the Warriors but didn't sign the players needed to go with such a strategy.
  • MarcusGarvey
    MarcusGarvey Members Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    white715 wrote: »

    Asian mans reaction was hilarious
  • MarcusGarvey
    MarcusGarvey Members Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Colin, Jason Whitlock, Skip, and Stephen A are all the same pile of ?

    For me Bomani is Nat Turner status right now
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.

    ima end this here

    im not sure why u bring up 19.9 and 17 when i just said the same thing lol

    u dont watch basketball bruh.

    if u did ud know that wall and a healthy wizards were a top 5 seed last year, this year they've been dealing with injuries and the east improved.

    idk about the good will colin has built in your eyes or ur examples of colin pandering to us, that ? sho does not get ratings and that fool is a clown for goin at john wall or anyone in the first place, u not bout to justify bruh bring up wall's dead dad cuz he's a kid doin a ? dougie when that has NOTHING to do with sports, ? outta here.

    19.9 is not 20. You can't round up my ? lol. And he has never averaged 20 points per game in any single season. You can't end anything because you are pointing out one isolated example of colin and ignoring my multiple examples of Colin actually taking the side of the black sport or player.

    Ur capin for an idiot who is mentioning someone dead dad for no reason and trying to down wall cuz in ur mind 19.9 and 20 is a huge difference

    Stick to riding b cotton nuts cuz sports talk is not for u bruh
  • MillzOG
    MillzOG Members, Moderators Posts: 14,508 Regulator
    Yo can somebody pull up the clip from Colin Cowherd talking father's and the relation to leadership and all that...I used to listen to Colin everyday, and I remember that segment vaguely. If I remember correctly, that had nothing to do with John Wall. (I may be wrong, but from what I remember that was about quarterbacks)
  • The Lonious Monk
    The Lonious Monk Members Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cowherd is a ? , but I think the racial aspect of this is a reach. 90% of his criticism of Wall comes from the fact that he doesn't like seeing Wall dance around on the court while simultaneously not living up what he was hyped to be. Saying that that criticism is racist because he through in a comment about his daughter getting something that Wall didn't is dubious. These sports reporters make those kids of comparisons all the time regardless of color. I'm not saying that Cowherd isn't racist or hasn't said racist things, but this seems kinda weak.
  • MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14
    MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14 Members Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.

    ima end this here

    im not sure why u bring up 19.9 and 17 when i just said the same thing lol

    u dont watch basketball bruh.

    if u did ud know that wall and a healthy wizards were a top 5 seed last year, this year they've been dealing with injuries and the east improved.

    idk about the good will colin has built in your eyes or ur examples of colin pandering to us, that ? sho does not get ratings and that fool is a clown for goin at john wall or anyone in the first place, u not bout to justify bruh bring up wall's dead dad cuz he's a kid doin a ? dougie when that has NOTHING to do with sports, ? outta here.

    19.9 is not 20. You can't round up my ? lol. And he has never averaged 20 points per game in any single season. You can't end anything because you are pointing out one isolated example of colin and ignoring my multiple examples of Colin actually taking the side of the black sport or player.

    Ur capin for an idiot who is mentioning someone dead dad for no reason and trying to down wall cuz in ur mind 19.9 and 20 is a huge difference

    Stick to riding b cotton nuts cuz sports talk is not for u bruh

    19.9 isn't 20 plain and simple. Wall has never averaged 20 points a game in any season. And i posted multiple facts in situations where he defended black players. unless you cna post multiple examples against what i am saying your argument's ain't ? . you should stick to changing your rap name every 3 months instead of trying to come out here without actual facts.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    Monizzle14 wrote: »
    lol @ ? defending this dude, i dont think he's a racist but hes a clown. when his show aired on espn u i saw it and thought how in ? name can people actually be entertained by this.

    this clown picked on wall for things that have nothing to do with his game

    a 20/10 pg this season, 16/8 career wise. and bruh talkin bout wall dad, and yall defending it smh.

    Wall got 19.9 ppg and is 17 ppg for his career. How is he a clown if this is juts one instance of colin going at wall and now saying he was slightly wrong about it. Colin has been talked about how he has matured since his rookie year. However he didn't make the playoffs in the ? ass east. I don't care who you have on your team you can't say someone was that great but their team ain't make this ? ass eastern conference playoffs.

    Outside of this instance colin has defended lebron when he went to the heat (not the popular opinion for a white radio host to take). He defended the sterotypes about the NBA. He has stood up nearly every time to white biogtry that has called into the show. I don't believe in white saviors but he outside the wall incident he is nowhere close to a clown. Not to mention his show on both espn and and now fox/iheart radio gets ratings for the right reasons. Not because he is trying to be Bill O'Reilly.

    ima end this here

    im not sure why u bring up 19.9 and 17 when i just said the same thing lol

    u dont watch basketball bruh.

    if u did ud know that wall and a healthy wizards were a top 5 seed last year, this year they've been dealing with injuries and the east improved.

    idk about the good will colin has built in your eyes or ur examples of colin pandering to us, that ? sho does not get ratings and that fool is a clown for goin at john wall or anyone in the first place, u not bout to justify bruh bring up wall's dead dad cuz he's a kid doin a ? dougie when that has NOTHING to do with sports, ? outta here.

    19.9 is not 20. You can't round up my ? lol. And he has never averaged 20 points per game in any single season. You can't end anything because you are pointing out one isolated example of colin and ignoring my multiple examples of Colin actually taking the side of the black sport or player.

    Ur capin for an idiot who is mentioning someone dead dad for no reason and trying to down wall cuz in ur mind 19.9 and 20 is a huge difference

    Stick to riding b cotton nuts cuz sports talk is not for u bruh

    19.9 isn't 20 plain and simple. Wall has never averaged 20 points a game in any season. And i posted multiple facts in situations where he defended black players. unless you cna post multiple examples against what i am saying your argument's ain't ? . you should stick to changing your rap name every 3 months instead of trying to come out here without actual facts.

    Lol Bruh, I don't care about him defending black players. Ur multiple facts never meant a gotdamn thing. if u like cacs who blatantly pander to and brainwash u that's fine, I mean I'm not shocked, ur a whitewashed hockey player anyway. I said from jump I don't even think he's a racist. He is a clown, and I'm inclined to believe anyone defending him is just as much of one
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wall has had a very good career and is getting better, cowherd has no reason to say he hasn't lived up to any hype

    And the fact there is a ? in here arguing that 19.9 isn't 20 or even close is "what's a zone defense" dumb
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm looking through this thread and wondering why bruh is even saying "but but but. He supported blacks and called out cacs!"

    ?

    Ain't nobody say that clown was racist. Just that he's said borderline things and singled out a kid for dougie'n, like kids do
  • Inglewood_B
    Inglewood_B Members Posts: 12,246 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm looking through this thread and wondering why bruh is even saying "but but but. He supported blacks and called out cacs!"

    ?

    Ain't nobody say that clown was racist. Just that he's said borderline things and singled out a kid for dougie'n, like kids do

    the whole "dog whistle for intended audience" and comparison to Trump is referring to this.