OTTB Debate Topic 2: Is there too much choreography in modern wrestling?
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jono
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This question is born from Vader's objection to the recent Will Osprey vs Ricochet match.
He pretty much called it gymnastics and not wrestling. Says that wrestling should be about storytelling and not flips.
^ that is a gif of an exchange that too place in the match.
I'm inclined to agree with Vader. I know alot of this began with the RVD vs Jerry Lynn matches that were highly choreographed at times. I don't remember seeing wrestling that looks like a Jackie Chan fight scene before that.
This stuff looks cool but it doesn't resemble a fight. It resembles figure skating. I'm all for the aforementioned RVD vs LYNN matches because while some choreography was involved it was kept to a minimum.
To that end, the old head Jim Cornette criticized RVD for having "unrealistic" offense like the Van Terminator and the side kick chair spot.
http://youtu.be/k74ygG376pw
The crux of that argument is that it exposes the business but couldn't one argue the business is already exposed?
One of the Young Bucks defended the Ospray/Ricochet match saying it was storytelling of a different variety and that storytelling isn't all about working a limb.
He pretty much called it gymnastics and not wrestling. Says that wrestling should be about storytelling and not flips.
^ that is a gif of an exchange that too place in the match.
I'm inclined to agree with Vader. I know alot of this began with the RVD vs Jerry Lynn matches that were highly choreographed at times. I don't remember seeing wrestling that looks like a Jackie Chan fight scene before that.
This stuff looks cool but it doesn't resemble a fight. It resembles figure skating. I'm all for the aforementioned RVD vs LYNN matches because while some choreography was involved it was kept to a minimum.
To that end, the old head Jim Cornette criticized RVD for having "unrealistic" offense like the Van Terminator and the side kick chair spot.
http://youtu.be/k74ygG376pwThe crux of that argument is that it exposes the business but couldn't one argue the business is already exposed?
One of the Young Bucks defended the Ospray/Ricochet match saying it was storytelling of a different variety and that storytelling isn't all about working a limb.
OTTB Debate Topic 2: Is there too much choreography in modern wrestling? 2 votes
Agree
50%
1 vote
Disagree
50%
1 vote
Comments
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People never seen RVD vs Lynn or Eddie vs Rey Mysterio. There's more to wrestling than WWE style
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Vince needs to get her on the phone if that's the case -
Vince needs to get her on the phone if that's the case
If you don't like that ? stop promoting it then -
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Back on subject. This is Vader's series of tweets on the subject. He tweeted extensively about it but these best explain his position...
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didn't see the whole match. I assume that gif was the opening sequence?
it looked pretty cool. it was entertaining. wrestling is a form of entertainment. the crowd was entertained. mission accomplished -
William Regal's opinion:
“I watched the match and was shocked. You need to start doing real stuff like people from my era like kip ups,flying head scissors,cart wheels and criss crosses. Get a grip! When I started the job in ’83 a lot of the older fellas used to say that Marc Rocco and Marty Jones (who were the real pioneers of the CW style) had killed the business because they did to much. Although they may not admit it anymore, most of the heavyweights in Europe thought the brilliant lightweight and middleweight wrestlers were bad for the job because their style was “not believable enough”.. Every country I worked in before I came to the US had different styles and ways of doing things.As long as there’s effort then it’s right.If the people paying you are happy and you get reactions then make your stuff as good as it can be with what skills you have.May not be for everyone but that’s ok.In the match I saw two fellas who looked like fighters having an excellent,hard competed match in a different style.Win win!
Read more at http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/713319-william-regal-offers-his-thoughts-on-ricochetospreay-match#3Wc4HdLV6vSexgh3.99 -
it all comes down to balance in my mind
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that sequence looked like a hyped up version of what super crazy and tajiri used to do, a stand off at the beginning of the duel, im fine with that
but as the match goes on, an athletic showcase can be great, but athletic moves with meaning behind them with in the story would only make things better in most cases imo, balance. -
which reminds me
the revival in NXT has one of the dopest shirts
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Already Home_17 wrote: »which reminds me
the revival in NXT has one of the dopest shirts
That tag is harsh. I ? with them. -
I think image and choreography go hand in hand.
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I don't make posts about them like "here's this cool thing I'm gonna post about so I can complain about it that nobody would know about, if I didn't post about in the first place" type of posts.
We different.
It's different to take a jab and criticize than what you're doing here (even tho I am kinda trolling you at this point because I get what you're saying) or to be a fanboy who constantly treats a product like an ex girlfriend that cheats on them constantly but never leaves them.
I'm just saying this is one of the most viral things going on outside of WWE non Bullef club and as usual you're gonna ? on them.
You're the WWE fan that watches everything outside of WWE and ? on them minus Adam Cole, but hey I'm exaggerating (a bit). -
At the end of the day modern wrestling? The whole ? IS choreographed ONE.
TWO what Ricochet and Ospreay been doing is no different than what Low Ki, EZ Money, Teddy Hart and others were doing in 2001-2002. (Let's not even talk about RVD, Kid Cash, WCW luchadores, Hayabusa, AJ Styles, early TNA XDivision stars)
Modern wrestling? "Modern" wrestling to most Americans is Monday Night Raw and a WWE PPV once and sometimes twice a month usually on a Sunday night.
This is foreign/indies style and ? gotta watch the whole clip which is posted in one of them stickies.
Can't judge an entire "story" by a looking at an Instagram/twitter "chapter".
ECW Heatwave 1998
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhspD5QG5k
TNA Triple Ladder Match 2002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCSHPWH8d90
Dynamite Kid early to mid 80s (career ended in 1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18bVurF8eok
? is hardly modern or the most used style, but for some reason gets noticed more. I wonder why.
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? is entertaining to me
shrugs -
Certain wrestlers fit it and some don't. I couldn't see Stone cold doing back flips around the ring but Michaels and etc could do it. This generation is mostly lightweights so it makes sense and seeing some of these big guys pull it off is simply amazing but it fits their character. Dean Ambrose would be much better if he was more acrobatic.
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I think Tajiri was the first dude who I seen do those backflips against the ropes or at least the first one I associate with.
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meh i really dont like it
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it has to be a nice blend.....
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Eh I could get down with most of it. Like @Peezy_Jenkins said, it has to be a balance. Most of us watch wrestling while suspending our belief with the expectation of some level of realism in return. The only part of that gif that bugged me was the synchronized flips. Otherwise, I can def appreciate the art. And as if Hulk, Warrior and others no selling ? was anywhere near realistic. ? outta here
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Lol Stone Cold stays mad at people not selling DDTs enough. That's gonna be his favorite move.
https://youtu.be/iLcfmhoOPfc![[Deleted User]](https://w1.vanillicon.com/v2/15efd8efe08bb34aae25f1808aaf5018.svg)