This entire concept of 'toxic masculinity'....y'all know we gotta address it.
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atribecalledgabi wrote: »We're in a time where women are more educated and entering a lot more male dominated spaces so there's a lot of frustrations that are now being heard and echoed from large groups of women. Not all of it is worth examining, but some of it is and it comes from the job the ppl that raised us did. Our grandparents and parents didn't get it all the way right, or even halfway right in some cases, and I'm not really interested in tryna recreate a dynamic that didn't particularly work in MY family (my dad possesses a lot of qualities on that bingo chart and so did his dad).
As for the concept of "toxic masculinity" tho, I don't really understand it...are they saying men ruined the male-female dynamic with their overt masculinity?
Well with all due respect our fathers and grandfathers come for a period of time where the demeanor of men had to be different. Many of today's over emotional ass men would have either been turned\punked or gotten everyone killed. We don't get to where we are without our ancestors both men and women being both rough and rugged. For as hardened (no ? ) lmao as the men were so were the women. So, I think ultimately they balanced each other.
I think we are in a place today where we can be more selective in asserting ourselves. Also, being a Black Man I don't like being lumped in with all MEN, particularly in the context of the workplace. I say with surety, most Black men welcome women in the workplace. I think any vitriol or finger pointing should be pointed in the direction of White men and women for that matter. They stay hating on any people of color getting gwap.
The first part I absolutely agree with. Our parents and grandparents were products of their times and environments, and more specifically, we (meaning black ppl) came up in family dynamics that were geared towards survival. Wasn't no time for exploring emotions, having mental health checks, days off, etc. But as somebody whose parents did pretty ok for themselves financially and socially, those survival methods of raising me and my siblings became obsolete.
My point is that I see the values my parents were getting at and the context of why they did the things they did, but the execution and message is just really off base in what I deal with today. A lot of black parents got it right with their kids and I'm not saying mine didn't or that they did a bad job. But im not really into ? romanticizing granny and granddad's marriage just because they stayed together 40 years. My dad's parents did that ? and stayed together for the kids and were miserable af lol. I'm not tryna be the "down ass woman" to that "real man" in that situation cuz it's not necessary.
That's just on the topic of male-female relationships idk or really gaf about any other areas toxic masculinity covers. -
DoubleShotHelix wrote: »Women out here trying to shoehorn themselves into male spaces then complaining about it being overly male...oh okay
by that logic we should not complain about racism and any other kind of inequality. -
atribecalledgabi wrote: »atribecalledgabi wrote: »We're in a time where women are more educated and entering a lot more male dominated spaces so there's a lot of frustrations that are now being heard and echoed from large groups of women. Not all of it is worth examining, but some of it is and it comes from the job the ppl that raised us did. Our grandparents and parents didn't get it all the way right, or even halfway right in some cases, and I'm not really interested in tryna recreate a dynamic that didn't particularly work in MY family (my dad possesses a lot of qualities on that bingo chart and so did his dad).
As for the concept of "toxic masculinity" tho, I don't really understand it...are they saying men ruined the male-female dynamic with their overt masculinity?
Well with all due respect our fathers and grandfathers come for a period of time where the demeanor of men had to be different. Many of today's over emotional ass men would have either been turned\punked or gotten everyone killed. We don't get to where we are without our ancestors both men and women being both rough and rugged. For as hardened (no ? ) lmao as the men were so were the women. So, I think ultimately they balanced each other.
I think we are in a place today where we can be more selective in asserting ourselves. Also, being a Black Man I don't like being lumped in with all MEN, particularly in the context of the workplace. I say with surety, most Black men welcome women in the workplace. I think any vitriol or finger pointing should be pointed in the direction of White men and women for that matter. They stay hating on any people of color getting gwap.
The first part I absolutely agree with. Our parents and grandparents were products of their times and environments, and more specifically, we (meaning black ppl) came up in family dynamics that were geared towards survival. Wasn't no time for exploring emotions, having mental health checks, days off, etc. But as somebody whose parents did pretty ok for themselves financially and socially, those survival methods of raising me and my siblings became obsolete.
My point is that I see the values my parents were getting at and the context of why they did the things they did, but the execution and message is just really off base in what I deal with today. A lot of black parents got it right with their kids and I'm not saying mine didn't or that they did a bad job. But im not really into ? romanticizing granny and granddad's marriage just because they stayed together 40 years. My dad's parents did that ? and stayed together for the kids and were miserable af lol. I'm not tryna be the "down ass woman" to that "real man" in that situation cuz it's not necessary.
That's just on the topic of male-female relationships idk or really gaf about any other areas toxic masculinity covers.
I can dig it. My parents stayed together for that period of time as well. However, I took the opposite from it that you did. I find it quite necessary and honorable. When you make a commitment to the creator you follow through with it. Most importantly you find happiness within not within other people. Having been married for almost half of that time you do go through all sorts of ebs and flows. Although I have never been miserable. I have been unsure, maybe even discontented. I guess I am cut from that "real man" cloth with a dash of today's evolving male. Balance. -
fortyacres wrote: »DoubleShotHelix wrote: »Women out here trying to shoehorn themselves into male spaces then complaining about it being overly male...oh okay
by that logic we should not complain about racism and any other kind of inequality.
Not true in the fact that we were forcefully brought here against our will made into slaves and activitly barred and thwarted from any semblance of humanity for centuries then upon release physically, financially, legally ect from achieving or establishing anything on our own lest we be smited as individuals and communities.
No one was out here doing ? to that degree to women... The majority of the women that are complaining are the beneficiaries of that exact system.
Most of that goofy ass ? is nothing more than white women complaining about not having the same oppressive powers as white men but at the end of the day the majority of Western white women and their ancestors benefit(ed) from the subjugation of colored people and continue to do so.
What you're claiming is a false equivalency -
fortyacres wrote: »atribecalledgabi wrote: »We're in a time where women are more educated and entering a lot more male dominated spaces so there's a lot of frustrations that are now being heard and echoed from large groups of women. Not all of it is worth examining, but some of it is and it comes from the job the ppl that raised us did. Our grandparents and parents didn't get it all the way right, or even halfway right in some cases, and I'm not really interested in tryna recreate a dynamic that didn't particularly work in MY family (my dad possesses a lot of qualities on that bingo chart and so did his dad).
As for the concept of "toxic masculinity" tho, I don't really understand it...are they saying men ruined the male-female dynamic with their overt masculinity?
Well with all due respect our fathers and grandfathers come for a period of time where the demeanor of men had to be different. Many of today's over emotional ass men would have either been turned\punked or gotten everyone killed. We don't get to where we are without our ancestors both men and women being both rough and rugged. For as hardened (no ? ) lmao as the men were so were the women. So, I think ultimately they balanced each other.
I think we are in a place today where we can be more selective in asserting ourselves. Also, being a Black Man I don't like being lumped in with all MEN, particularly in the context of the workplace. I say with surety, most Black men welcome women in the workplace. I think any vitriol or finger pointing should be pointed in the direction of White men and women for that matter. They stay hating on any people of color getting gwap.
Same can be said for men from the 1900s being sent to the 1800s and so on and so forth , technological advancement and social trends , less wars, decline in poverty , disease , crime etc changes in human society , its just evolutionary and inevitable i dont think it has anything to do with being punked or soft , people just adapt to whatever environment and times they live in we will say it about the next generation and they will say it about the nex e.t.c...
Reading these 2 posts brought this quote to mind
Pretty sure we're on the last part for western civilization in general... -
2stepz_ahead wrote: »atribecalledgabi wrote: »We're in a time where women are more educated and entering a lot more male dominated spaces so there's a lot of frustrations that are now being heard and echoed from large groups of women. Not all of it is worth examining, but some of it is and it comes from the job the ppl that raised us did. Our grandparents and parents didn't get it all the way right, or even halfway right in some cases, and I'm not really interested in tryna recreate a dynamic that didn't particularly work in MY family (my dad possesses a lot of qualities on that bingo chart and so did his dad).
As for the concept of "toxic masculinity" tho, I don't really understand it...are they saying men ruined the male-female dynamic with their overt masculinity?
sup gabi
have you ever talked to your people about why they have those qualities?
you might have a new respect for them. might not be so surface
Some, yea. Others I just left it up to "that's just how it was back in the day" and I don't judge it.
For the ones I talked to about it, I either don't get straight answers....they clammed up cuz it's like they haven't sat with the decisions they made on their own so they can't come up with ? when pressed, which is fine....or the rationale is just like "yea I did this, that and the third. And?" Lol like they did what they did and that's that and it doesn't matter if you have a problem with it or not.
Either way I don't judge ppl for not making what I feel like would be the best decision if they weren't equipped with the same ? i was that led me to that "best decision." I can't hold really hold a ? accountable that only had a 3rd grade education for something that my college educated ass wouldn't have done. We're not on the same level, therfore the thinking processes are gonna be mad different.
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These ? out here trying to police people's thoughts and feelings while benefiting from those thoughts feelings and actions...
Black people as a whole never gave a ? about what the oppressor thought or felt about us.... We just wanted them to leave us the ? along and they could go on about their cracka ways. They refused to allow us to create our own prosperous society everytime we got something going they would legitimately come thru ? and maim us economically and physically, LITERALLY.
We were simply like well damn you done brought us here against our will we can't go back you refuse to allow us to exist independent of you the least you could do is idk stop ? killing us and allow us to make enough bread crumbs to feed ourselves.
That ain't what these ? fighting for. They're quite literally fighting against the idea of men/male thought, actions and ideology as a collective. Often times ? that doesn't even actually directly affect them.
That ? is ? stupid and not even remotely the same as racism or racial discrimination against blacks. -
DoubleShotHelix wrote: »fortyacres wrote: »DoubleShotHelix wrote: »Women out here trying to shoehorn themselves into male spaces then complaining about it being overly male...oh okay
by that logic we should not complain about racism and any other kind of inequality.
Not true in the fact that we were forcefully brought here against our will made into slaves and activitly barred and thwarted from any semblance of humanity for centuries then upon release physically, financially, legally ect from achieving or establishing anything on our own lest we be smited as individuals and communities.
No one was out here doing ? to that degree to women... The majority of the women that are complaining are the beneficiaries of that exact system.
Most of that goofy ass ? is nothing more than white women complaining about not having the same oppressive powers as white men but at the end of the day the majority of Western white women and their ancestors benefit(ed) from the subjugation of colored people and continue to do so.
What you're claiming is a false equivalency
Nope , its not a white woman thing. Feminism has taken many forms in different cultures over centuries, just because women in the past seemed content with gender roles by "men's" recorded account i might ass does not mean they were happy or its true or its the natural law of things. It just shows me people had not yet evolved intellectually to express dissatisfaction with the status quo. Just like any other movement where there is not actual equality or semblance of egalitarianism there will be friction and then conflict.History has proven this time and time again.
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I never said it was all or only white women.... HOWEVER, we're not going to sit here and act like that ever single wave of feminism has not been orchestrated and directed by the women of the dominant society who are unhappy with their current position and benefits acquired by the socioeconomic structure and culture especially in relation to other minority groups and in the case of America, it's white women.
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Toxic masculinity to me means a dude who's manhood is cloaked in insecurity.
You constantly feel you have to prove your manhood or toughness.
You can't feel like you have to be emotionally distant or vacant.
Any perceived slight resorts in violence.
A sense of entitlement when it comes to having relationships with women.
Not being able to have fun or to relax without worrying about what people will think about you.
Basically being obsessed with your own toughness, being ill-tempered and violent, insecure, lacking in emotional intelligence, heavy reliance on ego coupled with a fear of rejection and failure lead to toxic masculinity.
I look at the bingo chart and I don't see anything inherently toxic about any of that. -
The first three post after the OP are pretty much all you need here folks.
