The Bible says the book of Exodus never happened
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Regretting making something doesn’t mean he did anything wrong as “mistake” implies. ? made everybody upright.
You think ? had direct control over Pharoah when it comes to him letting the Hebrew slaves go?
It does if you're supposed to be a perfect being. If ? is omnipotent and omniscient, then he was capable of creating truly up right humans and knew what would happen with the humans he did create. If he regretted making humanity, that means he wish he hadn't of done it. What is do you call it when you do something you wish you didn't.
As far as Pharaoh goes, he was going to let the Jews go several times before the final plague and he was done with them after the final plague.
Exodus 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.
Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this.
So basically, Pharaoh starts off being against letting the Israelites go until he has enough of the plagues. After that, ? basically keeps him from letting them go. Then after Pharaoh finally is allowed to let them go, ? is the one that gets him to pursue the Israelites, all so he can get glory from destroying the Egyptian soldiers. -
If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness.
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
It is kinda messed up, yea... it wasn’t because some bet though. The scriptures don’t even reveal why Job went through all that and even after it was all done Job was never told by ? why he went through it either.
Nah dog, it's pretty clear. Satan goes to ? bashing humanity. ? brings up Job. Satan says Job is only good because ? protects him. ? gives Satan permission to take everything from Job as long as he doesn't harm Job. They even revisit the washer when Job's faith holds.kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
The funny thing about the Bible is that it itself proves just how demonic and evil the Bible ? truly is. If Satan was truly real, he did the right thing turning his back on such an evil being.
I wouldn't say Demonic. Basically ? is the creator and he can do what he wants. He makes use of that freedom. There is very little in the Old Testament that he does that isn't justified. It just doesn't jive with our understanding of a merciful ? . The theme of the Old Testament is that humans are a ? creation and we're lucky ? didn't just wipe us out. Now what that says about ? as a creator is debatable. Lol
Well it says the Bible ? made some mistakes during creation lol. Humans are a reflection of ? supposedly, so that speaks for itself. And the Bible ? does some pretty ? up things in the OT, it even admits to creating evil and calamity, what a guy.
This is one thing me and my pastor always disagree on. He says the that ? is incapable of mistakes. I say the Bible clearly suggests otherwise. It says that when ? saw how murderous humans were, he regretted making them and wished he hadn't done it. To me, that clearly means that ? saw making humans as being a mistake. My pastor believes that regret for ? doesn't mean what we think it means. That was just the best way of describing ? 's feelings since his ways are different than ours. I don't buy it. I agree that ? 's ways may be beyond our understanding, but if the Bible says he regretted something, I'm going to take it at that.
On another note, I don't think ? created evil in the way you mean it. After all, evil is kinda defined as being the opposite of ? 's will, so evil and sin were created more or less as a consequence ? 's existence and will. ? did do some weird things though. Like if you read the story with Pharaoh and Moses, it clearly says that on more than one occasion, Pharaoh was ready to let the Jews go and be done with it all, but ? hardened his heart. It's unclear why, but ? really wanted to ? the Egyptians over.
It really is weird that the Bible ? could regret making humanity, isn't it all knowing and all powerful, etc etc? So how the hell could he not see us coming? It's all part of the weird contradictions that makes me think the Bible ? is just a figment of peoples' imaginations. It drowned the whole world supposedly, yet it failed to create a better version of humans or something that could replace us.
And as far as evil, the Bible ? makes clear that HE create calamity and evil, and we all know what those things consist of. Humans can be even more cruel then regular animals, so why would such a "good" ? create such things? Doesn't seem godlike to me. I would forgive those things if the Bible ? could at least prove it's powerful, or at least half of what it claims to be. I can see why so many Jews are atheist. Otherwise, I do believe there is something out there, but the Bible ? makes less and less sense to me and many others these days. -
BiblicalAtheist wrote: »If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness.
Does free will TRULY exist.....?
Think about it, yes we have many choices in life, but notice some have better choices to choose from since birth. Is that truly free will? -
kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
It is kinda messed up, yea... it wasn’t because some bet though. The scriptures don’t even reveal why Job went through all that and even after it was all done Job was never told by ? why he went through it either.
Nah dog, it's pretty clear. Satan goes to ? bashing humanity. ? brings up Job. Satan says Job is only good because ? protects him. ? gives Satan permission to take everything from Job as long as he doesn't harm Job. They even revisit the washer when Job's faith holds.kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
The funny thing about the Bible is that it itself proves just how demonic and evil the Bible ? truly is. If Satan was truly real, he did the right thing turning his back on such an evil being.
I wouldn't say Demonic. Basically ? is the creator and he can do what he wants. He makes use of that freedom. There is very little in the Old Testament that he does that isn't justified. It just doesn't jive with our understanding of a merciful ? . The theme of the Old Testament is that humans are a ? creation and we're lucky ? didn't just wipe us out. Now what that says about ? as a creator is debatable. Lol
Well it says the Bible ? made some mistakes during creation lol. Humans are a reflection of ? supposedly, so that speaks for itself. And the Bible ? does some pretty ? up things in the OT, it even admits to creating evil and calamity, what a guy.
This is one thing me and my pastor always disagree on. He says the that ? is incapable of mistakes. I say the Bible clearly suggests otherwise. It says that when ? saw how murderous humans were, he regretted making them and wished he hadn't done it. To me, that clearly means that ? saw making humans as being a mistake. My pastor believes that regret for ? doesn't mean what we think it means. That was just the best way of describing ? 's feelings since his ways are different than ours. I don't buy it. I agree that ? 's ways may be beyond our understanding, but if the Bible says he regretted something, I'm going to take it at that.
On another note, I don't think ? created evil in the way you mean it. After all, evil is kinda defined as being the opposite of ? 's will, so evil and sin were created more or less as a consequence ? 's existence and will. ? did do some weird things though. Like if you read the story with Pharaoh and Moses, it clearly says that on more than one occasion, Pharaoh was ready to let the Jews go and be done with it all, but ? hardened his heart. It's unclear why, but ? really wanted to ? the Egyptians over.
It really is weird that the Bible ? could regret making humanity, isn't it all knowing and all powerful, etc etc? So how the hell could he not see us coming? It's all part of the weird contradictions that makes me think the Bible ? is just a figment of peoples' imaginations. It drowned the whole world supposedly, yet it failed to create a better version of humans or something that could replace us.
And as far as evil, the Bible ? makes clear that HE create calamity and evil, and we all know what those things consist of. Humans can be even more cruel then regular animals, so why would such a "good" ? create such things? Doesn't seem godlike to me. I would forgive those things if the Bible ? could at least prove it's powerful, or at least half of what it claims to be. I can see why so many Jews are atheist. Otherwise, I do believe there is something out there, but the Bible ? makes less and less sense to me and many others these days.
Well, when you read the Bible as a whole and put some of the pieces together, some of what you have a problem with makes sense.
So ? did know that humans would be bad. It's basically a consequence of our free will. We have a choice, we means we can choose not to obey ? . So it is inevitable that we would eventually do so. That's pretty much why ? let Satan into the Garden of Eden. It was basically a setup because ? knew humanity would sin eventually. However, ? had a plan to save humanity for sin--Jesus. However, people have to choose Jesus to be saved by him. The Old Testament more or less is there to show us that we can't rise above sin without Jesus and the Holy Spirit. ? gave humanity laws and humanity broke them time and time again. With Jesus' death, we are given an opportunity to obtain salvation by choosing ? , which is what he always wanted.
Now, I ask for ? 's forgiveness, but to be frank, the Bible makes him out to be pretty petty. He does almost everything to stroke his own ego. That said, anyone who can create a universe or a race of people has the right to do what ? has done. As bad as ? seems at times, the reason he is as heavy handed as he is is because of how ? up humanity is. The whole reason he wanted to ? off humanity with the flood is because people wouldn't stop killing each other. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »BiblicalAtheist wrote: »If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness.
Does free will TRULY exist.....?
Think about it, yes we have many choices in life, but notice some have better choices to choose from since birth. Is that truly free will?
Yes.
Freewill as the will to want is free indeed. Free from restrictions and conditions, in stark contrast to current understanding of freewill meaning, you can do whatever you want without restrictions and conditions, which clearly is not true. -
You could have an opinion, but an opinion is just that. the Bible already answers both the questions of whether ? is perfect and whether mankind was made perfect though. Most people that’s not Christian in any instance they find out that the Bible don’t support their preconceived idea of how they think ? “should” be, they decide the Bible has to fit their personal view or it’s wrong. That’s how most people think. And that is why most people are lost.
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
It is kinda messed up, yea... it wasn’t because some bet though. The scriptures don’t even reveal why Job went through all that and even after it was all done Job was never told by ? why he went through it either.
Nah dog, it's pretty clear. Satan goes to ? bashing humanity. ? brings up Job. Satan says Job is only good because ? protects him. ? gives Satan permission to take everything from Job as long as he doesn't harm Job. They even revisit the washer when Job's faith holds.kingblaze84 wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »I love the New Testament, but the Old Testament is frankly a bit weird.
Like it's hard for me to understand how Job's story could possibly paint ? in anything but a negative light. He pretty much turned his most faithful and righteous servant's life into a living hell just to win a bet with Satan. Kinda crazy.
The funny thing about the Bible is that it itself proves just how demonic and evil the Bible ? truly is. If Satan was truly real, he did the right thing turning his back on such an evil being.
I wouldn't say Demonic. Basically ? is the creator and he can do what he wants. He makes use of that freedom. There is very little in the Old Testament that he does that isn't justified. It just doesn't jive with our understanding of a merciful ? . The theme of the Old Testament is that humans are a ? creation and we're lucky ? didn't just wipe us out. Now what that says about ? as a creator is debatable. Lol
Well it says the Bible ? made some mistakes during creation lol. Humans are a reflection of ? supposedly, so that speaks for itself. And the Bible ? does some pretty ? up things in the OT, it even admits to creating evil and calamity, what a guy.
This is one thing me and my pastor always disagree on. He says the that ? is incapable of mistakes. I say the Bible clearly suggests otherwise. It says that when ? saw how murderous humans were, he regretted making them and wished he hadn't done it. To me, that clearly means that ? saw making humans as being a mistake. My pastor believes that regret for ? doesn't mean what we think it means. That was just the best way of describing ? 's feelings since his ways are different than ours. I don't buy it. I agree that ? 's ways may be beyond our understanding, but if the Bible says he regretted something, I'm going to take it at that.
On another note, I don't think ? created evil in the way you mean it. After all, evil is kinda defined as being the opposite of ? 's will, so evil and sin were created more or less as a consequence ? 's existence and will. ? did do some weird things though. Like if you read the story with Pharaoh and Moses, it clearly says that on more than one occasion, Pharaoh was ready to let the Jews go and be done with it all, but ? hardened his heart. It's unclear why, but ? really wanted to ? the Egyptians over.
It really is weird that the Bible ? could regret making humanity, isn't it all knowing and all powerful, etc etc? So how the hell could he not see us coming? It's all part of the weird contradictions that makes me think the Bible ? is just a figment of peoples' imaginations. It drowned the whole world supposedly, yet it failed to create a better version of humans or something that could replace us.
And as far as evil, the Bible ? makes clear that HE create calamity and evil, and we all know what those things consist of. Humans can be even more cruel then regular animals, so why would such a "good" ? create such things? Doesn't seem godlike to me. I would forgive those things if the Bible ? could at least prove it's powerful, or at least half of what it claims to be. I can see why so many Jews are atheist. Otherwise, I do believe there is something out there, but the Bible ? makes less and less sense to me and many others these days.
Well, when you read the Bible as a whole and put some of the pieces together, some of what you have a problem with makes sense.
So ? did know that humans would be bad. It's basically a consequence of our free will. We have a choice, we means we can choose not to obey ? . So it is inevitable that we would eventually do so. That's pretty much why ? let Satan into the Garden of Eden. It was basically a setup because ? knew humanity would sin eventually. However, ? had a plan to save humanity for sin--Jesus. However, people have to choose Jesus to be saved by him. The Old Testament more or less is there to show us that we can't rise above sin without Jesus and the Holy Spirit. ? gave humanity laws and humanity broke them time and time again. With Jesus' death, we are given an opportunity to obtain salvation by choosing ? , which is what he always wanted.
Now, I ask for ? 's forgiveness, but to be frank, the Bible makes him out to be pretty petty. He does almost everything to stroke his own ego. That said, anyone who can create a universe or a race of people has the right to do what ? has done. As bad as ? seems at times, the reason he is as heavy handed as he is is because of how ? up humanity is. The whole reason he wanted to ? off humanity with the flood is because people wouldn't stop killing each other.
Jesus saved humanity? How, WW2 killed over 100 million people maybe, and WW1 killed maybe 20 million. Humans are still doing the same thing ? up things we've ever done, and I didn't exactly see ? doing much to save his "chosen people" during the Holocaust lol. Forgive me for being skeptical, but I just don't see Jesus being all that powerful. How can non-Christians choose the Bible ? when there is no evidence it's even a powerful being? The Bible ? is always playing a game of hide and seek and for some reason enjoys constantly hiding haha.
We do agree the Bible ? seems very petty. I just don't find that to be a godlike quality. Especially when that same Bible ? admits to creating evil and calamity, things that are very natural in nature (calamity specifically). I agree humanity is ? up, but the Bible ? is way more ? up then humans are. Brain eating parasites are natural things, yet the Bible ? admits to creating such things. That technically makes the Bible ? just as evil as ? or Genghis Khan. I see no difference between the three, assuming the Bible ? is even real.
In fact, the Bible ? , if the Bible is correct, is WAAAAYYY more evil then ? and Genghis Khan. What was the purpose of creating brain eating parasites, if not for pure sadistic pleasure? Parasites ? and torture millions every year LOL.....remember, the Bible ? admits to creating calamity and everything else. This is why I consider the Bible ? a demon instead of a ? . -
Yea kinda like babies?BiblicalAtheist wrote: »If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness. -
BiblicalAtheist wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »BiblicalAtheist wrote: »If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness.
Does free will TRULY exist.....?
Think about it, yes we have many choices in life, but notice some have better choices to choose from since birth. Is that truly free will?
Yes.
Freewill as the will to want is free indeed. Free from restrictions and conditions, in stark contrast to current understanding of freewill meaning, you can do whatever you want without restrictions and conditions, which clearly is not true.
We can will to want anything. I can will to be an angel with wings who also has superhuman strength and laser beam eyes like Superman, doesn't mean it can actually happen.
So what you're describing seems more like controlled will. Yes, we can THINK about all kinds of choices, but in reality, only some can really push the boundaries of what is possible. A child dying of various diseases and born with no eyes only has so much free will. That child will be dependent on others for a very long time, if not forever. A person born with no legs and to a very poor family in Ethiopia has very limited choices compared to the children of Michael Jordan or Warren Buffet.
This doesn't sound like free will to me. Limited will might be the more appropriate phrase? But FREE will is a complete dream to millions, if not billions of people out there in the world. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »BiblicalAtheist wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »BiblicalAtheist wrote: »If ? created the perfect upright humans we wouldn't we here discussing this, we'd still be like mindless animals with no freewill or self awareness.
Does free will TRULY exist.....?
Think about it, yes we have many choices in life, but notice some have better choices to choose from since birth. Is that truly free will?
Yes.
Freewill as the will to want is free indeed. Free from restrictions and conditions, in stark contrast to current understanding of freewill meaning, you can do whatever you want without restrictions and conditions, which clearly is not true.
We can will to want anything. I can will to be an angel with wings who also has superhuman strength and laser beam eyes like Superman, doesn't mean it can actually happen.
So what you're describing seems more like controlled will. Yes, we can THINK about all kinds of choices, but in reality, only some can really push the boundaries of what is possible. A child dying of various diseases and born with no eyes only has so much free will. That child will be dependent on others for a very long time, if not forever. A person born with no legs and to a very poor family in Ethiopia has very limited choices compared to the children of Michael Jordan or Warren Buffet.
This doesn't sound like free will to me. Limited will might be the more appropriate phrase? But FREE will is a complete dream to millions, if not billions of people out there in the world.
That is why I made the point of distinction between the two. You can Will to want something until the day you die, no one can take that away, not even if they ? you. You can want for* anything, there are no restrictions to that. The blind gimped up kid has no freewill in the classical sense, neither do you mind, that freewill does not exist. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »
Jesus saved humanity? How, WW2 killed over 100 million people maybe, and WW1 killed maybe 20 million. Humans are still doing the same thing ? up things we've ever done, and I didn't exactly see ? doing much to save his "chosen people" during the Holocaust lol. Forgive me for being skeptical, but I just don't see Jesus being all that powerful. How can non-Christians choose the Bible ? when there is no evidence it's even a powerful being? The Bible ? is always playing a game of hide and seek and for some reason enjoys constantly hiding haha.
We do agree the Bible ? seems very petty. I just don't find that to be a godlike quality. Especially when that same Bible ? admits to creating evil and calamity, things that are very natural in nature (calamity specifically). I agree humanity is ? up, but the Bible ? is way more ? up then humans are. Brain eating parasites are natural things, yet the Bible ? admits to creating such things. That technically makes the Bible ? just as evil as ? or Genghis Khan. I see no difference between the three, assuming the Bible ? is even real.
In fact, the Bible ? , if the Bible is correct, is WAAAAYYY more evil then ? and Genghis Khan. What was the purpose of creating brain eating parasites, if not for pure sadistic pleasure? Parasites ? and torture millions every year LOL.....remember, the Bible ? admits to creating calamity and everything else. This is why I consider the Bible ? a demon instead of a ? .
Jesus save humanity by offering humans that choose him an opportunity for salvation. Yes, the world is still full of evil, but with Jesus, people who accept him can be saved and reach Heaven. Without Jesus everyone die and go to Hell.
I'm not really sure what more you want to believe that ? is a powerful being. Either you believe the Bible or not. If you believe the Bible, then clearly did numerous things that demonstrate his power. If you don't believe the Bible, I'm not sure why you'd even care about what the Christian faith dictates.
What you're calling evil isn't really evil. The Bible says that ? created everything, but things have obviously evolved since creation. There are animals alive now that weren't alive thousands of years ago. However, ? did tell Adam and Eve that a world of misery would be their punishment for sinning. Again, you can't compare ? to people. ? had no right to ? 6 million Jews. ? has every right to punish his creation for failing him. You can say that his punishment isn't particularly merciful, but that doesn't make it evil. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »
Jesus saved humanity? How, WW2 killed over 100 million people maybe, and WW1 killed maybe 20 million. Humans are still doing the same thing ? up things we've ever done, and I didn't exactly see ? doing much to save his "chosen people" during the Holocaust lol. Forgive me for being skeptical, but I just don't see Jesus being all that powerful. How can non-Christians choose the Bible ? when there is no evidence it's even a powerful being? The Bible ? is always playing a game of hide and seek and for some reason enjoys constantly hiding haha.
We do agree the Bible ? seems very petty. I just don't find that to be a godlike quality. Especially when that same Bible ? admits to creating evil and calamity, things that are very natural in nature (calamity specifically). I agree humanity is ? up, but the Bible ? is way more ? up then humans are. Brain eating parasites are natural things, yet the Bible ? admits to creating such things. That technically makes the Bible ? just as evil as ? or Genghis Khan. I see no difference between the three, assuming the Bible ? is even real.
In fact, the Bible ? , if the Bible is correct, is WAAAAYYY more evil then ? and Genghis Khan. What was the purpose of creating brain eating parasites, if not for pure sadistic pleasure? Parasites ? and torture millions every year LOL.....remember, the Bible ? admits to creating calamity and everything else. This is why I consider the Bible ? a demon instead of a ? .
Jesus save humanity by offering humans that choose him an opportunity for salvation. Yes, the world is still full of evil, but with Jesus, people who accept him can be saved and reach Heaven. Without Jesus everyone die and go to Hell.
I'm not really sure what more you want to believe that ? is a powerful being. Either you believe the Bible or not. If you believe the Bible, then clearly did numerous things that demonstrate his power. If you don't believe the Bible, I'm not sure why you'd even care about what the Christian faith dictates.
What you're calling evil isn't really evil. The Bible says that ? created everything, but things have obviously evolved since creation. There are animals alive now that weren't alive thousands of years ago. However, ? did tell Adam and Eve that a world of misery would be their punishment for sinning. Again, you can't compare ? to people. ? had no right to ? 6 million Jews. ? has every right to punish his creation for failing him. You can say that his punishment isn't particularly merciful, but that doesn't make it evil.
The only reason I care a little about what Christian faith dictates is because of some of the preachers I run into on the subway train lol, otherwise it's pretty obvious I'm far from the religious type. I'm skeptical of anything that can't prove itself and therefore I'm skeptical about ALL religions, not just Christianity. I can believe there is a powerful force out there, but I don't see evidence the Bible ? is even alive anymore, assuming it ever was alive.
Your faith seems strong, and I certainly respect that. I just don't see how the same Bible ? that claims to be good and righteous can also be the same ? that admits to creating evil and calamity. The Bible ? , if real, seems extremely evil to me because it admits to creating literally ALL of the horrors of the world. Parasites, worms that grow out of peoples' skin and eyes, all kinds of naturally crazy ? . I'm not sure how Christians do it, but I personally could NEVER worship that kind of ? . I would feel like I'm worshipping Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer lol, something more evil then them in fact.
But to each his own. A "? " like the Bible ? that holds grudges after 2,000 plus years seems petty as ? and unworthy of my worship. I'm still puzzled as to why anyone would worship a ? like that. -
The Bible ? admits to creating ALL things......so I guess it made these things too......
https://youtu.be/fGG7CSZUIMI
How is the Bible ? not a deranged and twisted evil psychopath then? After all, it made ALL things......right? The people who made up the Bible really ? up when they said its ? made all things LOL......I can only conclude if the Bible ? is real, it's a deranged psychopath demon no different then the sickest slave master or the most ? up scientist from ? Germany. Such a being must be a demon, far from a ? .
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kingblaze84 wrote: »
The only reason I care a little about what Christian faith dictates is because of some of the preachers I run into on the subway train lol, otherwise it's pretty obvious I'm far from the religious type. I'm skeptical of anything that can't prove itself and therefore I'm skeptical about ALL religions, not just Christianity. I can believe there is a powerful force out there, but I don't see evidence the Bible ? is even alive anymore, assuming it ever was alive.
Your faith seems strong, and I certainly respect that. I just don't see how the same Bible ? that claims to be good and righteous can also be the same ? that admits to creating evil and calamity. The Bible ? , if real, seems extremely evil to me because it admits to creating literally ALL of the horrors of the world. Parasites, worms that grow out of peoples' skin and eyes, all kinds of naturally crazy ? . I'm not sure how Christians do it, but I personally could NEVER worship that kind of ? . I would feel like I'm worshipping Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer lol, something more evil then them in fact.
But to each his own. A "? " like the Bible ? that holds grudges after 2,000 plus years seems petty as ? and unworthy of my worship. I'm still puzzled as to why anyone would worship a ? like that.
I get where you're coming from. Any religious person that is honest will have to admit that they questioned their faith at some point. In my opinion, if they haven't they aren't true believers, they've just been indoctrinated. We don't have all the answers and religion is faith based, so everyone is going to run into something that makes them wonder.
I'm a scientist by training so I, like you, like to see empirical evidence for things. You're just not going to get that from Christianity. ? wants us to live by faith, so taking that leap is something you have to do. For me, I was raised as a Christian, and went through a (long) phase where I didn't really live like a Christian. I always stayed connected in sense though because even though I didn't understand everything about the Bible (and still don't), I still believed Jesus' teachings were correct. I can definitely say that since I took steps to restore my faith, my life has gotten better. That's not to say everything is perfect or that there are no struggles, but I'm at peace and I've found myself either getting everything I needed/wanted or being able to deal more easily without having. That's really all I needed for me to believe ? is real.
As for the other things you're saying, ? created everything period. So yes evil and calamity are in that, but it didn't happen in the way you're making it seem. For instance, if ? created light, then he also created darkness because darkness is just the absence of light. That doesn't mean that he purposely created a state where people can't see so that they'd stumble and hurt themselves. That's kinda how you're twisting things. From a Biblical standpoint, goodness and harmony come from ? . Evil and calamity are analgous to darkness in that they are basically the opposite of those things. ? is goodness, so evil is basically anything that opposes him. So in that sense, he created evil, but again, he didn't do it in the way or for the reasons that you're implying. The argument you're making about the worms and parasites seems kinda silly to me though. ? created a world with diverse life. Life has evolved since he created it. I don't think ? micromanages that type of thing just like I don't believe he's holding the earth and manually spinning it every day. Such misery that you mention was not present in the Garden of Eden, which was the place meant for mankind. It only came about afterwards as part of this imperfect world. What you seem to ignore is that this world is just a stepping stone to the next by Christian faith. So what if you live ~70 years of misery if it leads to you living the rest of eternity in bliss. Just think of Earth as a proving grounds or basic training. It may be rough and you may not understand why you have to go through it all, but if you make it through, things will become clear and it will be worth it in the end. I'm not sure what you mean by ? holding a grudge for 2000+ years though. -
I think Kingblaze honesty just wants one xtian to say, "You know what, you're right, ? this xtianity ? !"
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »
The only reason I care a little about what Christian faith dictates is because of some of the preachers I run into on the subway train lol, otherwise it's pretty obvious I'm far from the religious type. I'm skeptical of anything that can't prove itself and therefore I'm skeptical about ALL religions, not just Christianity. I can believe there is a powerful force out there, but I don't see evidence the Bible ? is even alive anymore, assuming it ever was alive.
Your faith seems strong, and I certainly respect that. I just don't see how the same Bible ? that claims to be good and righteous can also be the same ? that admits to creating evil and calamity. The Bible ? , if real, seems extremely evil to me because it admits to creating literally ALL of the horrors of the world. Parasites, worms that grow out of peoples' skin and eyes, all kinds of naturally crazy ? . I'm not sure how Christians do it, but I personally could NEVER worship that kind of ? . I would feel like I'm worshipping Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer lol, something more evil then them in fact.
But to each his own. A "? " like the Bible ? that holds grudges after 2,000 plus years seems petty as ? and unworthy of my worship. I'm still puzzled as to why anyone would worship a ? like that.
I get where you're coming from. Any religious person that is honest will have to admit that they questioned their faith at some point. In my opinion, if they haven't they aren't true believers, they've just been indoctrinated. We don't have all the answers and religion is faith based, so everyone is going to run into something that makes them wonder.
I'm a scientist by training so I, like you, like to see empirical evidence for things. You're just not going to get that from Christianity. ? wants us to live by faith, so taking that leap is something you have to do. For me, I was raised as a Christian, and went through a (long) phase where I didn't really live like a Christian. I always stayed connected in sense though because even though I didn't understand everything about the Bible (and still don't), I still believed Jesus' teachings were correct. I can definitely say that since I took steps to restore my faith, my life has gotten better. That's not to say everything is perfect or that there are no struggles, but I'm at peace and I've found myself either getting everything I needed/wanted or being able to deal more easily without having. That's really all I needed for me to believe ? is real.
As for the other things you're saying, ? created everything period. So yes evil and calamity are in that, but it didn't happen in the way you're making it seem. For instance, if ? created light, then he also created darkness because darkness is just the absence of light. That doesn't mean that he purposely created a state where people can't see so that they'd stumble and hurt themselves. That's kinda how you're twisting things. From a Biblical standpoint, goodness and harmony come from ? . Evil and calamity are analgous to darkness in that they are basically the opposite of those things. ? is goodness, so evil is basically anything that opposes him. So in that sense, he created evil, but again, he didn't do it in the way or for the reasons that you're implying. The argument you're making about the worms and parasites seems kinda silly to me though. ? created a world with diverse life. Life has evolved since he created it. I don't think ? micromanages that type of thing just like I don't believe he's holding the earth and manually spinning it every day. Such misery that you mention was not present in the Garden of Eden, which was the place meant for mankind. It only came about afterwards as part of this imperfect world. What you seem to ignore is that this world is just a stepping stone to the next by Christian faith. So what if you live ~70 years of misery if it leads to you living the rest of eternity in bliss. Just think of Earth as a proving grounds or basic training. It may be rough and you may not understand why you have to go through it all, but if you make it through, things will become clear and it will be worth it in the end. I'm not sure what you mean by ? holding a grudge for 2000+ years though.
I do believe there is something out there, but I wouldn't dismiss parasites as some silly thing, especially if you claim the Bible ? created parasites on purpose. People and animals suffer greatly from these things, yet the Bible ? claims to love all things lol, come on now. I do understand why some are religious, as I have experienced many of the beautiful things in life, but the Bible ? just seems extremely crazy to me. You're working to be a scientist, so you must know of the crazy things that's out there, things that have made hundreds of millions of people worldwide doubt there even is a ? .
And when I said a 2000 year grudge, I mean that Jesus "died for our sins" 2000 plus years ago, yet it seems the Bible ? still has the grudge from the Adam and Eve days. So yeah that would be much longer obviously, but the Jewish stories said the real messiah would create harmony on Earth and atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. Jesus didn't really change anything on Earth when he died, as the Jews noted, so that's why I'm always puzzled at how some see Jesus as a "savior". But as you said, you have made that true GIANT leap of faith, and that's fine. I just don't see how the Bible ? has proved itself on Earth, perhaps I watched too many superhero cartoons growing up and have high expectations of what a real savior is supposed to be. -
BiblicalAtheist wrote: »I think Kingblaze honesty just wants one xtian to say, "You know what, you're right, ? this xtianity ? !"
Not necessarily, I'm just giving my thoughts on the subject. Most people I know are actually former Christians, which is kind of interesting. Or maybe not, since I'm a former Christian myself. -
I was just teasing you King :P
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kingblaze84 wrote: »
I do believe there is something out there, but I wouldn't dismiss parasites as some silly thing, especially if you claim the Bible ? created parasites on purpose. People and animals suffer greatly from these things, yet the Bible ? claims to love all things lol, come on now. I do understand why some are religious, as I have experienced many of the beautiful things in life, but the Bible ? just seems extremely crazy to me. You're working to be a scientist, so you must know of the crazy things that's out there, things that have made hundreds of millions of people worldwide doubt there even is a ? .
And when I said a 2000 year grudge, I mean that Jesus "died for our sins" 2000 plus years ago, yet it seems the Bible ? still has the grudge from the Adam and Eve days. So yeah that would be much longer obviously, but the Jewish stories said the real messiah would create harmony on Earth and atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. Jesus didn't really change anything on Earth when he died, as the Jews noted, so that's why I'm always puzzled at how some see Jesus as a "savior". But as you said, you have made that true GIANT leap of faith, and that's fine. I just don't see how the Bible ? has proved itself on Earth, perhaps I watched too many superhero cartoons growing up and have high expectations of what a real savior is supposed to be.
I've learned things that have made people doubt ? 's existence. I've learned things that have made people believe even more that ? exists. It's all about perspective. The problem with the parasites and suffering argument is that it presupposes that a creator that loves its creation must make it so that creation faces no pain, hardship, or adversity. I don't believe that's true. Again, ? started humanity off in the Garden of Eden, and humanity screwed that up. One of the messages you can take from that story is that we can't just be handed paradise. If we are, we will inevitably take it for granted and do something to lose it. As you've noted there is good and beauty in the world. It's completely reasonable to believe that there should also be evil and ugliness. That's just balance not any particular animus from ? .
Part of your problem is that you're kinda putting your own feelings onto ? even in cases where the Bibles suggests his motivations are something completely different. Your describing ? 's feeling towards sin as a grudge kinda misses the point. ? hates sin. Humans didn't stop sinning after the Garden of Eden. As a species, we've engaged in sin more and more. If ? begrudged in the way you suggest, he wouldn't have sent Jesus, an aspect of himself, down to earth to die. You're also definitely missing the point of Jesus. He didn't come to Earth to change anything here. That should be pretty clear from the fact that sin persists to the point that the Earth will eventually be cleansed. We say Jesus saves because of what he offers beyond what is on Earth. Through him we can be saved, and we don't have to sacrifice animals or adhere to hundreds of nitpicky laws. We just have to believe in him and seek to be like him.
Your perspective seems to be from a person who thinks all that exists is this physical world we see. If that's the case, there isn't much I can tell you that will change your mind. However, if you believe there is more than just this physical plane, then you should be open to the idea that your existence here isn't the end all and be all and that whatever experiences you have here may be nothing compared to what awaits when you leave this plane. -
BiblicalAtheist wrote: »I was just teasing you King :P
; D -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »
I do believe there is something out there, but I wouldn't dismiss parasites as some silly thing, especially if you claim the Bible ? created parasites on purpose. People and animals suffer greatly from these things, yet the Bible ? claims to love all things lol, come on now. I do understand why some are religious, as I have experienced many of the beautiful things in life, but the Bible ? just seems extremely crazy to me. You're working to be a scientist, so you must know of the crazy things that's out there, things that have made hundreds of millions of people worldwide doubt there even is a ? .
And when I said a 2000 year grudge, I mean that Jesus "died for our sins" 2000 plus years ago, yet it seems the Bible ? still has the grudge from the Adam and Eve days. So yeah that would be much longer obviously, but the Jewish stories said the real messiah would create harmony on Earth and atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. Jesus didn't really change anything on Earth when he died, as the Jews noted, so that's why I'm always puzzled at how some see Jesus as a "savior". But as you said, you have made that true GIANT leap of faith, and that's fine. I just don't see how the Bible ? has proved itself on Earth, perhaps I watched too many superhero cartoons growing up and have high expectations of what a real savior is supposed to be.
I've learned things that have made people doubt ? 's existence. I've learned things that have made people believe even more that ? exists. It's all about perspective. The problem with the parasites and suffering argument is that it presupposes that a creator that loves its creation must make it so that creation faces no pain, hardship, or adversity. I don't believe that's true. Again, ? started humanity off in the Garden of Eden, and humanity screwed that up. One of the messages you can take from that story is that we can't just be handed paradise. If we are, we will inevitably take it for granted and do something to lose it. As you've noted there is good and beauty in the world. It's completely reasonable to believe that there should also be evil and ugliness. That's just balance not any particular animus from ? .
Part of your problem is that you're kinda putting your own feelings onto ? even in cases where the Bibles suggests his motivations are something completely different. Your describing ? 's feeling towards sin as a grudge kinda misses the point. ? hates sin. Humans didn't stop sinning after the Garden of Eden. As a species, we've engaged in sin more and more. If ? begrudged in the way you suggest, he wouldn't have sent Jesus, an aspect of himself, down to earth to die. You're also definitely missing the point of Jesus. He didn't come to Earth to change anything here. That should be pretty clear from the fact that sin persists to the point that the Earth will eventually be cleansed. We say Jesus saves because of what he offers beyond what is on Earth. Through him we can be saved, and we don't have to sacrifice animals or adhere to hundreds of nitpicky laws. We just have to believe in him and seek to be like him.
Your perspective seems to be from a person who thinks all that exists is this physical world we see. If that's the case, there isn't much I can tell you that will change your mind. However, if you believe there is more than just this physical plane, then you should be open to the idea that your existence here isn't the end all and be all and that whatever experiences you have here may be nothing compared to what awaits when you leave this plane.
I'm sorry, did you say that a creator who makes us wants us to suffer from parasites in order to build character? Let's say a father and a mother puts their 5 kids in a bath tub with a bunch of rattlesnakes and ebola filled water. Would you consider that building a child's character? Most parents discipline their children and might even withhold pleasures if a child misbehaves, but we wouldn't consider it building character if we put our kids in ebola filled bathwater. If a parent did that, they would be considered mentally ill or a horrible parent. A mother put her kid in the oven for a few minutes the other day because he was misbehaving, is that building character? Nah, that's just evil. I won't give the so called Bible ? a pass because it claims (without proof) that it made the entire world. Evil is evil. Again, the Bible ? claims to have created evil.
BTW, I'm very aware there is much more to the universe then just this world. As I said before, I do believe there is a higher power out there, but it just seems Jesus and the Bible ? are weak for a "? ". Jesus himself cried out to "his father" in the Bible, but Jesus could not defeat his persecutors. They seem helpless and powerless in virtually every way, what happened to the Jewish legends Jesus was supposed to fulfill? Did Jesus forget about them, even 2,000 years later?
I sincerely hope there is an afterlife and I actually think there is one for some reason. But it seems Jesus doesn't have any interest in ACTUALLY helping humanity. Why so much laziness, after 2000 years of the false promise to come back quickly? -
kingblaze84 wrote: »
I'm sorry, did you say that a creator who makes us wants us to suffer from parasites in order to build character? Let's say a father and a mother puts their 5 kids in a bath tub with a bunch of rattlesnakes and ebola filled water. Would you consider that building a child's character? Most parents discipline their children and might even withhold pleasures if a child misbehaves, but we wouldn't consider it building character if we put our kids in ebola filled bathwater. If a parent did that, they would be considered mentally ill or a horrible parent. A mother put her kid in the oven for a few minutes the other day because he was misbehaving, is that building character? Nah, that's just evil. I won't give the so called Bible ? a pass because it claims (without proof) that it made the entire world. Evil is evil.
BTW, I'm very aware there is much more to the universe then just this world. As I said before, I do believe there is a higher power out there, but it just seems Jesus and the Bible ? are weak for a "? ". Jesus himself cried out to "his father" in the Bible, but Jesus could not defeat his persecutors. They seem helpless and powerless in virtually every way, what happened to the Jewish legends Jesus was supposed to fulfill? Did Jesus forget about them, even 2,000 years later?
I sincerely hope there is an afterlife and I actually think there is one for some reason. But it seems Jesus doesn't have any interest in ACTUALLY helping humanity. Why so much laziness, after 2000 years of the false promise to come back quickly?
Again, humanity was not meant to deal with the horrors that you keep throwing out. ? created a paradise for mankind. Mankind simply proved to be unworthy of it. And that's why we were relegated to a world with misery, and yes it is to build us up and essentially test our worthiness for paradise. I don't think your analogy is really reflective of the point I'm making. I would think of it more like the Marines or other military groups. Life prior to accepting Christ is like basic training. It's rough and some people won't make it, but it's designed to screen for the right people, those willing to accept Christ. Then once you accept Christ, your life in Christ is like a career in the military. It's still going to be hard and full of adversity, but at that point you should have the tools to deal with it and find joy in whatever you face. Dying as a believer is like retiring from the military and getting fat retirement. Here in the DC area, you see these dudes living it up because they progressed and got a nice retirement and also got the credentials they need to pull fat checks. So they sit pretty. Same thing with Christianity, by choosing Christ you get salvation and by living in Christ, you build up your heavenly rewards. A relatively small physical existence that has some misery and some happiness is a small price to pay for an eternity of bliss. I don't really think you factor that in. You keep harping on these parasites, but the pain those cause is nothing compared to an eternity in Heaven.
You seem to miss the point of Jesus. Jesus was ? in the flesh, but he was still a human. When it was his time to die, he was afraid, just as all humans have a fear of death. That's the whole point. You're not supposed to look at Jesus as if he was above humanity in that way, if he was, his life and death would have been pointless. As far as the prophecies of the Bible and what Jesus is supposed to do, they simply haven't happened. The Bible says no one knows when they will happen. This stuff works on ? 's time, not ours.
And saying Jesus has no interest in helping humanity is something you'd believe as a nonbeliever. Anyone who believes will gladly rattle off dozens of things Jesus and ? have done to help them and those around them. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »Who knows, maybe 10,000 years from now, aliens or whoever has control of Earth will think X-Men and Spider-Man were real people.
youre joking but I honestly believe this will happen. superman is basically a retelling of christ anyway -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »
I'm sorry, did you say that a creator who makes us wants us to suffer from parasites in order to build character? Let's say a father and a mother puts their 5 kids in a bath tub with a bunch of rattlesnakes and ebola filled water. Would you consider that building a child's character? Most parents discipline their children and might even withhold pleasures if a child misbehaves, but we wouldn't consider it building character if we put our kids in ebola filled bathwater. If a parent did that, they would be considered mentally ill or a horrible parent. A mother put her kid in the oven for a few minutes the other day because he was misbehaving, is that building character? Nah, that's just evil. I won't give the so called Bible ? a pass because it claims (without proof) that it made the entire world. Evil is evil.
BTW, I'm very aware there is much more to the universe then just this world. As I said before, I do believe there is a higher power out there, but it just seems Jesus and the Bible ? are weak for a "? ". Jesus himself cried out to "his father" in the Bible, but Jesus could not defeat his persecutors. They seem helpless and powerless in virtually every way, what happened to the Jewish legends Jesus was supposed to fulfill? Did Jesus forget about them, even 2,000 years later?
I sincerely hope there is an afterlife and I actually think there is one for some reason. But it seems Jesus doesn't have any interest in ACTUALLY helping humanity. Why so much laziness, after 2000 years of the false promise to come back quickly?
Again, humanity was not meant to deal with the horrors that you keep throwing out. ? created a paradise for mankind. Mankind simply proved to be unworthy of it. And that's why we were relegated to a world with misery, and yes it is to build us up and essentially test our worthiness for paradise. I don't think your analogy is really reflective of the point I'm making. I would think of it more like the Marines or other military groups. Life prior to accepting Christ is like basic training. It's rough and some people won't make it, but it's designed to screen for the right people, those willing to accept Christ. Then once you accept Christ, your life in Christ is like a career in the military. It's still going to be hard and full of adversity, but at that point you should have the tools to deal with it and find joy in whatever you face. Dying as a believer is like retiring from the military and getting fat retirement. Here in the DC area, you see these dudes living it up because they progressed and got a nice retirement and also got the credentials they need to pull fat checks. So they sit pretty. Same thing with Christianity, by choosing Christ you get salvation and by living in Christ, you build up your heavenly rewards. A relatively small physical existence that has some misery and some happiness is a small price to pay for an eternity of bliss. I don't really think you factor that in. You keep harping on these parasites, but the pain those cause is nothing compared to an eternity in Heaven.
You seem to miss the point of Jesus. Jesus was ? in the flesh, but he was still a human. When it was his time to die, he was afraid, just as all humans have a fear of death. That's the whole point. You're not supposed to look at Jesus as if he was above humanity in that way, if he was, his life and death would have been pointless. As far as the prophecies of the Bible and what Jesus is supposed to do, they simply haven't happened. The Bible says no one knows when they will happen. This stuff works on ? 's time, not ours.
And saying Jesus has no interest in helping humanity is something you'd believe as a nonbeliever. Anyone who believes will gladly rattle off dozens of things Jesus and ? have done to help them and those around them.
I've always laughed when I hear about "Jesus time" compared to our time. Isn't 2,000 plus years a pretty damn long time? I guess I'm the impatient type, along with most of the world, since most people worldwide are not Christian. But IDK, I freely admit my expectations are high for a savior. People are mad at Trump for how long it's taking for Puerto Rico to recover from those massive hurricanes, but shouldn't people question why it's taking so long for Jesus to do pretty much anything since he died?
And what do you mean things Jesus and "? " have done to help people? Because even if some feel that way, what about the many millions of people who seem to be doing well without being religious at all? Or those who are doing well and believe in multiple gods like Hindus and many Africans and others? Is it fair to say there are many gods out there helping multiple people? Hindus and animists make up a huge part of the world.
