Non-Believer Discussion: Jesus, the historical figure
Options
shootemwon
Members Posts: 4,635 ✭✭
Disclaimer: If you believe that Jesus Christ is divine or the savior, you probably want nothing to do with this thread, though you can certainly join in if you're willing to put your faith aside and offer historical information (this does not include scripture).
As an atheist, I'm of the belief that Jesus did exist, though much of what Christians believe about him is not true. I'm even inclined to believe that he was in fact a leader of a religious movement and died on the cross for going against the religious establishment. I'm willing to believe this because in his time, going against the religious establishment could indeed result in very serious punishment, and crucifixion was not uncommon during that era.
I'm looking for more information about Jesus from a HISTORICAL standpoint, including from those who believe he did not exist at all. If you have any good sources, please share them.
As an atheist, I'm of the belief that Jesus did exist, though much of what Christians believe about him is not true. I'm even inclined to believe that he was in fact a leader of a religious movement and died on the cross for going against the religious establishment. I'm willing to believe this because in his time, going against the religious establishment could indeed result in very serious punishment, and crucifixion was not uncommon during that era.
I'm looking for more information about Jesus from a HISTORICAL standpoint, including from those who believe he did not exist at all. If you have any good sources, please share them.
Comments
-
Well I do believe Jesus is based on a real man, just obviously not divine nor did he have such a great following at the time.
From a historical standpoint there isn't much to support it. There are texts that mention Yeshua was a great Hebrew Mystic from sources not associated with Christianity be it Christian writers, Christian Historians, gospels and so on.
Supposedly there is a tomb in which reads "Yeshua bar Yehosef", which means "Jesus son of Joseph". Now the issue is, some people accept this as proof that Jesus was real. It does have alot of other inscriptions such as mentioning Mary, Joseph, and Judah. Judah however is written as the son of Jesus and Mary the wife of Jesus and mother of Judah. Joseph is inscribed as the father of Jesus. I believe this is really the tomb of Jesus. I can believe Mary was Jesus' wife based on the lost gospels multiple accounts and some lines in the regular cannon as well. As to why Judah would be changed to his enemy from his child though baffles me. What is even more proof to me that this is true if the Judah writing was possibly wrong or faked is the fact that mitochondrial DNA tests revealed that neither Mary nor Jesus were related by their mothers blood which makes it even more likely they were married. No tests were done on Jospeh or Judah's body because they weren't in the tomb and had been raided. The body thought to be Jesus' was also shown to have been crucified or at least nailed through the wrists at some point.
I will add many archaeologists and historians don't believe it's really "Jesus Christ" for multiple reasons. The main ones being that they believe his body left Earth and he was ? , He and Mary weren't said to be married in the bible, and Judah couldn't be his son.
Outside of that though I don't believe any other physical evidence exists, just a few secular texts and that tomb. And the shroud of Turin which depends what side your on. Believers say its real and your tests on it are lies, science says the body was crucified but actually died of leprosy. -
Good ? .
If Mary was really Jesus' wife, then does that mean we know nothing about his mother? I know much of the 'Jesus' story was co-opted from other mythical stories of messiahs or divine humans. I was always amused by the "? birth" story because I figured it's origins were a woman who slept around and her man being gullible enough to believe that excuse, but from how you tell it, unless this was co-opted from another story, the ? birth would seem to be an invention of later Christians. -
Mary Magdalene was supposedly just a disciple, or in other cases his wife. Mary his mother is a completely different person. I'm not sure whether or not in the Jesus family tomb if his mother was in there or not I'll have to look around for it.
As for ? births, it's possible it was the original story from her mouth and not later added. From about 2,300 BC onward there have been hundreds of recorded "? births". Some cases considered ? , some star children, one was a swan. There also a ? birth somewhere associated with Enoch or Noah. Enoch was Noah's great father and one of the females within those two generations was impregnated by a star traveler touching her hand. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Mary Magdalene was supposedly just a disciple, or in other cases his wife. Mary his mother is a completely different person. I'm not sure whether or not in the Jesus family tomb if his mother was in there or not I'll have to look around for it.
As for ? births, it's possible it was the original story from her mouth and not later added. From about 2,300 BC onward there have been hundreds of recorded "? births". Some cases considered ? , some star children, one was a swan. There also a ? birth somewhere associated with Enoch or Noah. Enoch was Noah's great father and one of the females within those two generations was impregnated by a star traveler touching her hand.
Bottom line, do you think that in ancient times, immaculate conception was a viable excuse for women who had been knocked up out of wedlock to deceive their men and/or society? Seems to me like some ? that would get a loose woman out of a jam if men back then were really dumb enough to believe it. -
shootemwon wrote: »Bottom line, do you think that in ancient times, immaculate conception was a viable excuse for women who had been knocked up out of wedlock to deceive their men and/or society? Seems to me like some ? that would get a loose woman out of a jam if men back then were really dumb enough to believe it.
Absolutely. That or it's nothing more than story because it seems every immaculate conception has either a great king, a star child leader, or Jesus coming out the ? . -
Funny though, I wonder how many Christian men who believe that ? in the Jesus story would even consider the possibility of it being true if they found out their woman was pregnant, not by them, and wifey said "I been faithful to you, but ? impregnated me"
-
They would be in the insane asylum or prison with everyone else who claims that ? spoke to/speaks to them.
-
he was just another saint and somehow his twelve followers managed to convert so many people that the romans switched to christianity and eventually most of europe and had so much effect that we still feel it in a big way now.
thats my speculation cuz i'm sure plenty of people have claimed to be the messiah before and after jesus. As for proof... major historian Flavius Josephus wrote about him but people think that his writings were altered at some point. and i never heard about the tomb but thats interesting even though the church of the holy sepulchre is supposedly the place of his death -
and i dont know how the scripture came about because the Egyptian ? Horus and an Indian ? i forgot the name of, both share a ton of elements of the biography that would eventually be attributed to jesus, especially Horus, so who knows who actually wrote the New Testament.
-
..................
-
he was just another saint and somehow his twelve followers managed to convert so many people that the romans switched to christianity and eventually most of europe and had so much effect that we still feel it in a big way now.
thats my speculation cuz i'm sure plenty of people have claimed to be the messiah before and after jesus. As for proof... major historian Flavius Josephus wrote about him but people think that his writings were altered at some point. and i never heard about the tomb but thats interesting even though the church of the holy sepulchre is supposedly the place of his death
I'm not even sold on the idea that Jesus ever claimed to be the messiah. I think he likely just taught a different philosophy and was executed for doing so. The idea that he was actually ? could have easily been something that came about many years after his death. If Jesus did actually claim to be ? 's son, I also think there's a reasonable chance he was speaking more metaphorically, as in "we are all ? 's children". -
shootemwon wrote: »I'm not even sold on the idea that Jesus ever claimed to be the messiah. I think he likely just taught a different philosophy and was executed for doing so. The idea that he was actually ? could have easily been something that came about many years after his death. If Jesus did actually claim to be ? 's son, I also think there's a reasonable chance he was speaking more metaphorically, as in "we are all ? 's children".
yeah
a real chill,humble dude wouldnt claim to be ? or ? 's son
he was jus on some other ? and got ostracized for it -
If Jesus existed, he didn't exist 2000 years ago. His character in the Bible is an updated version of all the previous stories about Jesus figures that have been are since the beginning of our known history. IMO he's just a fictional figurehead with a metaphorical and metaphysical meaning.
In my opinion, for example, this whole walking on water thing is just how the described the first person who was ever able to swim. Think about what they would have called swimming when they first discovered how to do so. You think they would call it swimming? or Walking on water?..... Same with flying chariots and burning bushes. They're obviously not going to call them space ships or ufos, since those are modern terms. Or a communicating device with lots of flashing lights and colors instead of a burning bush. These are just some of the things in the bible that to me just point out what exactly these people were experiencing back in the day. Jesus is the same thing, with performing 'magic'. He probably had alien technology that people have never seen before for all we know... IF he really existed. -
ether-i-am wrote: »Joseph was the first holy simp! captain save thou hoe.
I bet his homies was like stone that ? Joseph!
nah nah ? ? her man, an angel told me.
BTW. ? could use an single ? chic? The triflin ? just had to covet someone elses wife.
LMAO.......damn, ? really is a trifling ? ...... -
If Jesus existed, he didn't exist 2000 years ago. His character in the Bible is an updated version of all the previous stories about Jesus figures that have been are since the beginning of our known history. IMO he's just a fictional figurehead with a metaphorical and metaphysical meaning.
In my opinion, for example, this whole walking on water thing is just how the described the first person who was ever able to swim. Think about what they would have called swimming when they first discovered how to do so. You think they would call it swimming? or Walking on water?..... Same with flying chariots and burning bushes. They're obviously not going to call them space ships or ufos, since those are modern terms. Or a communicating device with lots of flashing lights and colors instead of a burning bush. These are just some of the things in the bible that to me just point out what exactly these people were experiencing back in the day. Jesus is the same thing, with performing 'magic'. He probably had alien technology that people have never seen before for all we know... IF he really existed.
Yeah, this is quite possible. If Jesus really did exist, he may very well have used alien technology to impress so many people.
ORRRRRR people just added stuff to the story to further impress people who didn't want to believe. There's no proof either way, so I could care less. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »Yeah, this is quite possible. If Jesus really did exist, he may very well have used alien technology to impress so many people.
ORRRRRR people just added stuff to the story to further impress people who didn't want to believe. There's no proof either way, so I could care less.
yeah
folks for jus one-uppin each other's stories
brother A-- yeah,i heard that jesus dude a trill guy. he be saying some off the wall stuff,enough to get you crucified,,but i heard he fed bout 50 starvin villagers with his own money
brother B-- nah,i was there. dude fed five thousand people...on abraham,i swear. and he didnt even pay for it. he jus made the food appear out of thin air -
At most, I think there may have been a Yeshua ibn Yosef, who lived at some point and acquired some followers. The rest is exaggeration.
In the same way Hindus may see Buddha as a divine representation of Vishnu, Christians see Jesus as a divine representation of the Abrahamic "? ". -
Very good responses so far everyone.
-
fiat_money wrote: »At most, I think there may have been a Yeshua ibn Yosef, who lived at some point and acquired some followers. The rest is exaggeration.
In the same way Hindus may see Buddha as a divine representation of Vishnu, Christians see Jesus as a divine representation of the Abrahamic "? ".
i used to roll with the thought that Yesuah Bin Yusef takes the place but folks cant even pinpoint him in history..but he is supposed to be Historical Jesus
so if you cant pinpoint biblical jesus or historical jesus...........
all that "he may have lived between these ages and walks around these places and may have studied here" dont mean ?
its either it was or it wasnt -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Well I do believe Jesus is based on a real man, just obviously not divine nor did he have such a great following at the time.
From a historical standpoint there isn't much to support it. There are texts that mention Yeshua was a great Hebrew Mystic from sources not associated with Christianity be it Christian writers, Christian Historians, gospels and so on.
Supposedly there is a tomb in which reads "Yeshua bar Yehosef", which means "Jesus son of Joseph". Now the issue is, some people accept this as proof that Jesus was real. It does have alot of other inscriptions such as mentioning Mary, Joseph, and Judah. Judah however is written as the son of Jesus and Mary the wife of Jesus and mother of Judah. Joseph is inscribed as the father of Jesus. I believe this is really the tomb of Jesus. I can believe Mary was Jesus' wife based on the lost gospels multiple accounts and some lines in the regular cannon as well. As to why Judah would be changed to his enemy from his child though baffles me. What is even more proof to me that this is true if the Judah writing was possibly wrong or faked is the fact that mitochondrial DNA tests revealed that neither Mary nor Jesus were related by their mothers blood which makes it even more likely they were married. No tests were done on Jospeh or Judah's body because they weren't in the tomb and had been raided. The body thought to be Jesus' was also shown to have been crucified or at least nailed through the wrists at some point.
I will add many archaeologists and historians don't believe it's really "Jesus Christ" for multiple reasons. The main ones being that they believe his body left Earth and he was ? , He and Mary weren't said to be married in the bible, and Judah couldn't be his son.
Outside of that though I don't believe any other physical evidence exists, just a few secular texts and that tomb. And the shroud of Turin which depends what side your on. Believers say its real and your tests on it are lies, science says the body was crucified but actually died of leprosy.
Link?
............. -
bless the child wrote: »Link?
.............
Just go look up "lost tomb of Jesus." Like I said, it's widely debated whether it is or isn't "Jesus", but the writings have really been in the grave from about 1 B.C. to 75 A.D. To me the names Joespeh, Mary, Judah, Jesus and the whole genealogical fit seems to be better observed as truth then he floated away to space and his disciples, mother, father, and big name adversaries just vanished with no trace of tombs, burials, or bodies. -
shootemwon wrote: »Funny though, I wonder how many Christian men who believe that ? in the Jesus story would even consider the possibility of it being true if they found out their woman was pregnant, not by them, and wifey said "I been faithful to you, but ? impregnated me"
HAHAHAHAHA.Good point.Jesus' REAL father got played,but chose to live a lie and deny that his wife was a ? . -
I don't think Jesus existed at all. But if he did, him being a Nazarene Jew is interesting. The Nazarene were Jews heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, brought into the Middle east by Alexander the Great. The Bible almost totally ignores Alexander and what his campaigns did to change the military landscape of the Middle East. Same goes for early Roman Empire.
There were many rebel leaders in Judea, the Jesus story could have been pulled from any of them and then enhanced with other plot elements for dramatic effect. Similar to many other stories.
Some other considerations are the use of 'slang' terms in the bible that most don't understand.
For example, the idea of "being taken up by clouds" sounds like something metaphysical until you realize that Temple keepers often went by the honorific "cloud". Similar as if somebody ready today "the stars descended upon Hollywood". You and I know 'stars' in this case means celebrity humans, but without understanding the vernacular, you might assume we were crazy in the 2000s. -
HAHAHAHAHA.Good point.Jesus' REAL father got played,but chose to live a lie and deny that his wife was a ? .
Nah, Jesus real father was some middle east playa who took Mary's v-card and got the ? out out of Nazareth before she could hit him up talkin bout "I'm late"
Joseph is the chump who actually believed ? was knockin boots with him woman. -
Supposedly raised people from the dead, fed thousands with one tuna sammich, and turned water into ? .
And not ONE SINGLE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT FROM WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY ALIVE.
There are no writings about him from anything closer than a century after he was supposed to have existed.
Forget all the other miracles, just think about the ? thing. NOBODY wrote that down and kept that record?
There are written accounts of all types of mundane everyday ? from that time and place. But nothing about this wizard.
? .
Jesus didn't exist at all.
