The African doesn't exist

The_African
The_African Members Posts: 174
edited October 2010 in R & R (Religion and Race)
and neither do any of you. It feels so strongly that there is a permanent, central observer in 'my' brain with a constant identity but there isn't. There are 100 billion separate neurons in 'my' brain and none of them is 'me'. Each of these neurons is made up of molecules that are made up of atoms that are replaced frequently (every few months, according to V.S Ramachandran). There is no way that I could possibly be the same entity (ie. arrangement of sub-atomic particles) that I was 10 years ago. Some of the atoms in my body are probably the same as they were 10 years ago but only because they've been recycled, at one point (or two, three etc.), they were also replaced. There is no actual 'The African', there are just a bunch of sub-atomic particles that experience the illusion of being 'The African'. It's only a matter of time before an entirely new community of atoms experience the illusion of being 'The African' and the atoms I'm currently comprised of are recycled into other things. It's entirely possible, not even unlikely, that any of the atoms that any of my neurons are comprised of will replace or be replaced by any of the atoms that any of 'your' neurons are comprised of.

This is such a beautiful and fascinating fact to me. It makes me feel connected to nature as a whole. I don't feel empathy for most human beings but I admit that it's inconsistent for me not to. If you were to take this to it's logical conclusion, you should feel empathy for everybody, since there is no separate, single 'you' that can be considered as having separate interests from anyone else. Any of the particles you're made up of could end up experiencing the illusion of being Bill Gates or a starving, orphaned child. This completely destroys the validity of ethical egoism. Logically, we should be doing everything we can to minimize as much suffering as possible and increase as much happiness as possible.

Comments

  • b@squ1@t redux
    b@squ1@t redux Members Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    good ?


    they aint ready
  • Skeratch
    Skeratch Members Posts: 1,395 ✭✭
    edited September 2010
    Why did the contantly-changing collection of sub-atomic particles post the same thing twice?

    As previously stated by myself, I think this idea is interesting but it hinges on the idea that identity rests on an unchanging physical being. There are certain constants of self that, although they change do stay relatively constant, - memory, physical appearance, and relationship with the outside world.

    You can't argue with that because you don't exist.
  • BiblicalAtheist
    BiblicalAtheist Members Posts: 15,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    What is consciousness 'made up' of?
  • anthony7q
    anthony7q Members Posts: 782
    edited September 2010
    The soul, or pure consciousness, self, or whatever people call themselves thesedays
    is just along for the ride, because it doesn't know itself. Basically we could all end up
    believing anything if we don't know exactly how our own subconscious works. The souls
    only option is to follow whatever imagery the subconscious gives it, which in reality is the
    images we've got from life and other people. And we're are the ones who perpetuate that
    imagery regardless of whatever it is. It's why folks even upto today have being saying "know
    thyself.", " becareful what you wish for", and "we judge ourselves" etc, etc. The
    subconscious is pretty much our own personal heaven or hell, depending on how we think in
    life.
  • anthony7q
    anthony7q Members Posts: 782
    edited September 2010
    In the case of black people, our spiritual evolution does not come in endless steps. It
    reaches a ? when we permanently unite with our first Self and become full ? . As
    soon as the unity takes place, all the levels of all the heavens ever created open up for us,
    including the most recent heavens, those of Yahweh where the non-blacks are to be found.
    Thus when a black person reaches divine unity after the completion of the seven great rituals,
    he/she gains the power to access all the heavens in existence, in their infinitude. Perfected
    Gods have the power to create a body for themselves with which they can inhabit any of the
    heavens in existence, and there is no end to their number.

    62. So the difference then is that people who progress in stages, gain a glorified body
    corresponding to the level of their spiritual development, and are detained in that level until
    they gain more knowledge, wisdom and perfection to ascend further.
    Those who have attained divine unity, create a body for themselves according to which level
    of heaven they desire to visit.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/20037901/Black-Roots-Science
  • Chike
    Chike Members Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    DNA makes sure that our molecules form in a certain way. So if anything DNA is what makes us ourselves. Our molecules make up our vessel that we use to experience this reality.
  • The_African
    The_African Members Posts: 174
    edited September 2010
    Why did the contantly-changing collection of sub-atomic particles post the same thing twice?


    Because I'm ? excited by this intriguing realization!
    As previously stated by myself, I think this idea is interesting but it hinges on the idea that identity rests on an unchanging physical being. There are certain constants of self that, although they change do stay relatively constant, - memory, physical appearance, and relationship with the outside world.



    What is consciousness 'made up' of?



    Memory is just information experienced by the billions of separate neurons in the brain. Consciousness isn't made up of anything, it's the processing of chemical and electrical information. We age, retain scars, have the same memories etc. not because the atoms that neurons and other cells are comprised of remain the same but because the structures they form start to deteriorate (aging) and are recopied similarly (scars. DNA, ).
    "Imagine building a sand castle. Four walls, some nice turrets, central spire, a moat—you gotta have a moa"," Dr. Brody says. "Now start replacing 100 percent of the sand with nice new sand."

    Think about what would happen to the structures of the walls and the turrets. How well would the moat continue to function after all that sand was replaced?

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11893583

    You can't argue with that because you don't exist.

    "I" am a collection of atoms that experience the illusion of being The African. Imagine if there was a virtual reality machine and someone plugged into this machine experienced the illusion of being a completely separate person in the 15th century from birth to age 10. Then that person is unplugged and someone else takes his place. This goes on for 70 years, the 7th person now plugged into that machine believes strongly that he's been the same person the entire 70 years, that he's had a constant, permanent identity. It's even more complicated then that since we are billions of neurons comprised of molecules comprised of atoms comprised of sub-atomic particles simultaneously having the same illusion.
    DNA makes sure that our molecules form in a certain way. So if anything DNA is what makes us ourselves. Our molecules make up our vessel that we use to experience this reality.

    We don't have the same actual DNA we had when we were born, it's been re-copied over and over again and mistakes have been made in the process.
  • Skeratch
    Skeratch Members Posts: 1,395 ✭✭
    edited September 2010
    Because I'm ? excited by this intriguing realization!

    Cool, but who is this "I"?
    Memory is just information experienced by the billions of separate neurons in the brain. Consciousness isn't made up of anything, it's the processing of chemical and electrical information. We age, retain scars, have the same memories etc. not because the atoms that neurons and other cells are comprised of remain the same but because the structures they form start to deteriorate.

    That doesn't address the fundamental problem. Our memories, our physical appearance, our concept of self, our consciousness remain largely constant whether or not neurons or sub-atomic particles physically change or not. You cannot tie our identity to our physical make-up alone. We are the sum of our parts.
    "I" am a collection of atoms that experience the illusion of being The African. Imagine if there was a virtual reality machine and someone plugged into this machine imagined being a completely separate person in the 15th century from birth to age 10. Then that person is unplugged and someone else takes his place. This goes on for 70 years, the 7th person now plugged into that machine believes strongly that he's been the same person the entire 70 years, that he's had a constant, permanent identity. It's even more complicated then that since we are billions of neurons comprised of molecules comprised of atoms comprised of sub-atomic particles simultaneously having the same illusion.

    So this is the matrix now?

    Cogito ergo sum.
  • Chike
    Chike Members Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2010

    We don't have the same actual DNA we had when we were born, it's been re-copied over and over again and mistakes have been made in the process.



    But it's still our own dna and no-one on the planet has an exact match as anyone else which is what makes us individuals. The universe and matter is always constantly changing.
  • The_African
    The_African Members Posts: 174
    edited September 2010
    Cool, but who is this "I"?

    I need to refer to the illusion for ease of conversation.

    That doesn't address the fundamental problem. Our memories, our physical appearance, our concept of self, our consciousness remain largely constant whether or not neurons or sub-atomic particles physically change or not. You cannot tie our identity to our physical make-up alone. We are the sum of our parts.


    Memories, concept of self, 'consciousness' (consciousness isn't a thing, it's a process) etc. is information. Physical appearance has nothing to do with personality so I don't see why that's even relevant. You say that you cannot tie our identity in with our physical make up then you turn around and say that we are the sum of our parts, our physical make up.. I agree, there is no 'us' beyond the parts we're made of and those parts are constantly being replaced by other parts.

    So this is the matrix now?

    In a sense, yes. Reality as we perceive it as an illusion.
    Cogito ergo sum.

    Obviously there's someone experiencing the illusion, we exist as sub-atomic particles but a year from now, most of 'me' will have been replaced. Nature recycles itself.

    But it's still our own dna and no-one on the planet has an exact match as anyone else which is what makes us individuals. The universe and matter is always constantly changing.

    A human isn't a single entity but a community of cells made up of molecules made up of atoms made up of sub-atomic particles. Our DNA is what distinguishes us from other communities of atoms but not as individuals . Every 'individual' in the community is going to be replaced but the new individuals will carry on the same jobs the old ones did that make the community distinct from other communities.
  • Chike
    Chike Members Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    A human isn't a single entity but a community of cells made up of molecules made up of atoms made up of sub-atomic particles. Our DNA is what distinguishes us from other communities of atoms but not as individuals . Every 'individual' in the community is going to be replaced but the new individuals will carry on the same jobs the old ones did that make the community distinct from other communities.



    I get what you're saying, but in no point in time are we 100% completely replaced by other cells at once, otherwise we would die. So you do exist, but just because you're a different person than you were 10 years ago, physically, that doesn't mean you aren't you. You can't touch another person and then fuse together and become one... atleast not that I know of... lol
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    Whatever. .................
  • Skeratch
    Skeratch Members Posts: 1,395 ✭✭
    edited September 2010
    I need to refer to the illusion for ease of conversation.

    Doesn't make sense, see below.

    Memories, concept of self, 'consciousness' (consciousness isn't a thing, it's a process) etc. is information. Physical appearance has nothing to do with personality so I don't see why that's even relevant. You say that you cannot tie our identity in with our physical make up then you turn around and say that we are the sum of our parts, our physical make up.. I agree, there is no 'us' beyond the parts we're made of and those parts are constantly being replaced by other parts.

    I just referred to physical appearance as something that remains almost constant, only changing a little over time - just as memories, concept of self, and memories do not change very much. These things are what make the self, and they pretty much remain the same. The simple fact that our physical chemistry is in a constant state of flux does not mean we have changed into another human or that we have no self.

    You look at a river, it's always changing, but it's the same river.
    In a sense, yes. Reality as we perceive it as an illusion.

    You have to realize that there is a built-in contradiction to what you're saying. If this self is not real, as you are claiming, then there is absolutely no way for you to prove that the hypothetical other self is real of false.
    A human isn't a single entity but a community of cells made up of molecules made up of atoms made up of sub-atomic particles. Our DNA is what distinguishes us from other communities of atoms but not as individuals . Every 'individual' in the community is going to be replaced but the new individuals will carry on the same jobs the old ones did that make the community distinct from other communities.

    The human being is a single entity made up of cells, made up of molecules, made up of atoms, made up of sub-atomic particles. Simple.

    The fact that you admitted that DNA distinguishes us from other "communities of atoms" means that you recognize that there are individual humans.

    Doesn't work.
  • Alkindus
    Alkindus Members Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2010
    Threadstarter, why speak as if you know what these atoms are and why they are what they are. I mean yes, everything can be meaningless but the given that you can analyse such things and speak on it should tell you that you are not an illusion, your ego just is....think about it, you just analysed your own brain, talking about process as if its an machine. they say DNA is what makes us 'unique' but ? forgot DNA is just another word people made up to put something truelly unexplainable in context, in a box if you will. numbers in essence don't measure ? , words in essence don't either.
  • And Step
    And Step Members Posts: 3,726 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2010