So who made the deal with the Devil?
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MansaMusa67 wrote: »If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since ? is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.
And if ? is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/? and murder are according to his plan.
This means that ? is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask ? first before he can do these things, that obviously means that ? is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".
The Most High is holy and just. With you being a Daoist, I think you should be able to understand that in our carnal world, there has to be a balance of both precieved "good" and "bad". Now, the "bad" that is in the world is due to the original sins committed by Adam and Eve. Every human has to "Suffer" (which i'm sure you are familiar with) because we are the descendants of them. The curses place on man due to sin are genrerational as well due to the original instructions of the Most High. So every human is not "suffering" due to what they individually have done, but also what those who have come before them have.
The Most High allows things to happen to people based on reaped consequences. Any bad that befalls a human is the consequence of him judging actions performed by the individual themself or the foreparents. When he allows satan or demons to negativley impact anyones life, he is not the author of that evil.
There is a difference between the Tao and the Christian ? . The Tao is not an omnibenevolent deity. The problem of evil is not applicable to Taoism in the way that it is to Christianity, due to the fact that Christianity supports belief in the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent creator. This creates a lot of difficulties in explaining and understanding how the world works the way it does.
While I understand cause and effect, collectivizing people is not just in the sense of moral law.
If ? is the creator of everything, he is the author of evil. Also, being that he is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, anything evil that happens not only doesn't make sense but is part of his doing, theoretically. For instance, if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not?? -
? allowed him to take dominion over this world but uses what Satan does to accomplish ? will.
Why? Why would he have to do that? Why allow evil to accomplish good when you can just directly accomplish good? If you're omnipotent, there is no need for means to an end.I dont think that mean ? is a micro manager, He doesnt step in every little time we get out of line, but He does when He choose to.
Imagine a parent saying, I only step in to protect my child from danger when I feel like it. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Everything you stated is based on faulty assumptions my friend. Your again trying to place the blame on ? for the actions of sinful creatures. ? is not responsible for the actions His creatures commit. ? gave all of His creative intelligences free will. In doing so, ? has allowed His creatures to make their own decisions. But with every choice one makes, there are repercussions that follow (either good or bad).
According to you, we don't have free will. Remember? You said everything that happens is ? 's will.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »You also have to understand that there is a great drama that is taking place, in which there are 2 opposite forces at work. ? in His sovereign will has allowed evil to come into His created universe, because of the free will He gave His creatures, in order that He will FOREVER demonstrate to all of His creation the consequences that naturally come from evil and rebellion. This brief period of time will stand as a ETERNAL witness that there is no good that comes from disobedience, rebellion, and sin. Thus, ? is letting this drama unfold so that at the end He will show to every being He ever created that LOVE always wins and that He is the one who was right all along. Hallelujah!
Why? If he's all powerful, he could have shown us this without throwing billions of us in hell to suffer eternal torment just to prove a point.
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Everything you stated is based on faulty assumptions my friend. Your again trying to place the blame on ? for the actions of sinful creatures. ? is not responsible for the actions His creatures commit. ? gave all of His creative intelligences free will. In doing so, ? has allowed His creatures to make their own decisions. But with every choice one makes, there are repercussions that follow (either good or bad).
According to you, we don't have free will. Remember? You said everything that happens is ? 's will.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »You also have to understand that there is a great drama that is taking place, in which there are 2 opposite forces at work. ? in His sovereign will has allowed evil to come into His created universe, because of the free will He gave His creatures, in order that He will FOREVER demonstrate to all of His creation the consequences that naturally come from evil and rebellion. This brief period of time will stand as a ETERNAL witness that there is no good that comes from disobedience, rebellion, and sin. Thus, ? is letting this drama unfold so that at the end He will show to every being He ever created that LOVE always wins and that He is the one who was right all along. Hallelujah!
Why? If he's all powerful, he could have shown us this without throwing billions of us in hell to suffer eternal torment just to prove a point.
1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.
2. The omniscience of ? doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.
3. ? demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of ? , how can there be any forgiveness for you?
4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. ? only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.
5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?
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MansaMusa67 wrote: »If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since ? is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.
And if ? is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/? and murder are according to his plan.
This means that ? is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask ? first before he can do these things, that obviously means that ? is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".
The Most High is holy and just. With you being a Daoist, I think you should be able to understand that in our carnal world, there has to be a balance of both precieved "good" and "bad". Now, the "bad" that is in the world is due to the original sins committed by Adam and Eve. Every human has to "Suffer" (which i'm sure you are familiar with) because we are the descendants of them. The curses place on man due to sin are genrerational as well due to the original instructions of the Most High. So every human is not "suffering" due to what they individually have done, but also what those who have come before them have.
The Most High allows things to happen to people based on reaped consequences. Any bad that befalls a human is the consequence of him judging actions performed by the individual themself or the foreparents. When he allows satan or demons to negativley impact anyones life, he is not the author of that evil.
There is a difference between the Tao and the Christian ? . The Tao is not an omnibenevolent deity. The problem of evil is not applicable to Taoism in the way that it is to Christianity, due to the fact that Christianity supports belief in the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent creator. This creates a lot of difficulties in explaining and understanding how the world works the way it does.
While I understand cause and effect, collectivizing people is not just in the sense of moral law.
If ? is the creator of everything, he is the author of evil. Also, being that he is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, anything evil that happens not only doesn't make sense but is part of his doing, theoretically. For instance, if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??
I get what you are saying now. Because The Most High is the creator of all living creatures with the power to manipulate things at his will, because he chose not to rid the worl of things that we percieve as "evil" he is also reponisble for the bad in the world? If that's what you are saying that is flawed because of the simplicity of the thought process...
The Most High is the "Abba" or orginal Father of man. Just because he created the world that we live in and man himself, you are saying he is responisble for the actions of a free willed creature. This is the equivalent of placing the father of a muderer in jail because his parenting failed to keep the child from growing into a murderer. The Most High operates based on the pricipals of karma per say as i mentioned in a previous post, not based on what should be. The "perfect" world was ruined when satan used his influence to introduce sin into the world and corrupt the Most Highs Creation. The problem for humans is to overcome the sinful nature portrayed by the First Man and woman which was passed down to us. It is unfair for the Most High to be blamed for the actions of the free willed when direct instruction was disobeyed in the "perfect" garden of Eden....
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.
You did and I'm not.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »2. The omniscience of ? doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.
Actually, it does. I'm tired of demonstrating this to you and your friends so I'll just leave it at that.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »3. ? demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of ? , how can there be any forgiveness for you?
I don't have to be forgiven because I don't believe in sin.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. ? only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.
If everything that happens is according to ? 's will, why does he feel the need to punish me when I'm just going along with what he planned for me??DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?
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MansaMusa67 wrote: »I get what you are saying now. Because The Most High is the creator of all living creatures with the power to manipulate things at his will, because he chose not to rid the worl[d] of things that we percieve as "evil" he is also reponisble for the bad in the world?
Yes. If he is omnipotent, he has the power to create any world imaginable. If he is omniscient, he can view the outcome of what he creates even down to every single thought of each individual in that world before he even creates it. ? is also supposedly omnibenevolent which would mean he would choose to create a world with the least amount of evil since it goes against his nature to create something evil or something that would bring about evil results. Being that he is omnipotent, he has the power, no doubt, to create a world with 0 percentage of evil.
If you disagree with this ^^^... you're going to have to abandon one of those attributes classically attributed to ? . Which one will it be?
1. Omnipotence
2. Omniscience
3. OmnibenevolenceMansaMusa67 wrote: »If that's what you are saying that is flawed because of the simplicity of the thought process...
How so? Actually I think it works because it is so simple.MansaMusa67 wrote: »The Most High is the "Abba" or orginal Father of man. Just because he created the world that we live in and man himself, you are saying he is responisble for the actions of a free willed creature.
Yes.. BECAUSE he is omniscient. Meaning, he knew the lives we would live before we lived them and willed that life into existence instead of a different one distinguishable by any small detail. That means the life I live right now is exactly how he wanted it to be. If he is indeed the creator, he is very much responsible for what he created.MansaMusa67 wrote: »This is the equivalent of placing the father of a muderer in jail because his parenting failed to keep the child from growing into a murderer.
Not really because the father is not omniscient. He didn't see the life of his child before the child was conceived. If humans were able to see our childrens' lives before we chose to create our children, we would be responsible for anything that happened that we were previously able to see and keep from happening. That's the difference.MansaMusa67 wrote: »The Most High operates based on the pricipals of karma per say as i mentioned in a previous post, not based on what should be.
"should be" meaning what he wants things to be? If that's the case, the law of karma is above ? 's will.MansaMusa67 wrote: »The "perfect" world was ruined when satan used his influence to introduce sin into the world and corrupt the Most Highs Creation. The problem for humans is to overcome the sinful nature portrayed by the First Man and woman which was passed down to us. It is unfair for the Most High to be blamed for the actions of the free willed when direct instruction was disobeyed in the "perfect" garden of Eden....
You haven't answered my question:if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??
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DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.
You did and I'm not.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »2. The omniscience of ? doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.
Actually, it does. I'm tired of demonstrating this to you and your friends so I'll just leave it at that.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »3. ? demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of ? , how can there be any forgiveness for you?
I don't have to be forgiven because I don't believe in sin.DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. ? only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.
If everything that happens is according to ? 's will, why does he feel the need to punish me when I'm just going along with what he planned for me??DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?
Why are you so angry with ? my friend? What happened in your past that has gotten you to this point, if you don't mind me asking? -
Oh and to answer your question, sin must be punished. Thus, if you die in your sins than you alone must bear the punishment for sin, which is eternal death.
But you don't have to go out like that my friend. Jesus Christ came to rescue us from the penalty of sin, by dying in our place. He has provided a way for our sins to be forgiven and His righteousness to be credited to our account. All He asks of us is to believe in Him and in what He did for us. He wants to give you life my friend. He doesn't want to harm you. He loves you my brother. Amen. -
I'm not angry with ? . It's difficult to be angry with something you don't believe in. I'm only speaking hypothetically for a argument's sake.
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I'm not angry with ? . It's difficult to be angry with something you don't believe in. I'm only speaking hypothetically for a argument's sake.
Deep down you know that ? exists my brother, every one does. That is why your "hypothetically" speaking about Him. Amen. -
? created the world but he is not creating our lives meaning that he is aware of every possible future but he is not directly creating all of them and that is why we are accountable for our own wrongs.
the future does not exist as something that is set in stone that is why when we pray we can change our direction in life. Hezekiah was given an extra 15 years of life if his future was set in stone he would have died. -
BEING omniscient means you have all knowledge if you apply that power to the future with the understanding that the future is not a singular thing and that it refers to all possible possiblities then you cannot blame ? for the future that you actualize.
? is also all good so he does not want to stop you from actualizing the future that you want nor is he going to condem you just because he has the knowledge of which future you might chose. it's only after you choose your future will you be punished. -
@Oceanic
I get where you are coming from. But the whole concept of free will is that humans have the choice to make good/bad decisions. The Most High just will manipulate things based on the decisions men make to fall in line with his plan. So, the lives of men are effected directly by the choices that we make, but based upon scripture and the overall objective of the Most High, things work according to his will. So in a sense, he works almost like the men in that Movie "The Adjusters". But people so in fact make their own decisions. He only attempts to influence people down the correct path. If they choose not to obey, that's their perogative.Oceanic wrote: »
if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??
No...
It seems to me you are comparing apples to oranges. Most events are interconnected and the things should be observed from a macro view. The recourse of certain decisions can be good or bad. The bad brings suffering and the good is the result of righteous living according to scripture. In the case of the bomb, if it explodes and kills people, those murders are on that maker of the bomb who had the free will to do so. The people killed in the bomb were in the vicinity for a reason. But those people were not murdered because of the Most High's unwillingness to intervene. And who is to say certain people who may frequent the area where the bomb exploded were not prevented from being there because of "events" that occured that prevented them?
The consequences of sin ultimately brings death. As the JUDGE of the actions of free willed beings, in this case, the Most High is not liable for the man's actions, but he will manipulate certain events to fulfill his WILL. Hope that makes sense. -
? allowed him to take dominion over this world but uses what Satan does to accomplish ? will.
1. Why? Why would he have to do that? Why allow evil to accomplish good when you can just directly accomplish good? If you're omnipotent, there is no need for means to an end.I dont think that mean ? is a micro manager, He doesnt step in every little time we get out of line, but He does when He choose to.
2. Imagine a parent saying, I only step in to protect my child from danger when I feel like it.
1. Its a few reasons why he allows evil. I can't get too deep in the game with all the reason but if u really think about it, doesn't it make for a better example of how powerful a being is when its one that allow us freedom to make our own choices but still able to get their way in the end?
2. I mean, directly step in. Hr doesn't have to DIRECTLY step in all thr time...He's already watching over us now, you still alive and well aren't you? But I know its the simple things like that we tend to take for granted. Thank ? for all the bad things that HAVEN'T happened, like not having an accident while driving and having food on the table... Dont just be thankful for the things he directly stepped in the picture to effect. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »
No, I don't believe in ? . This is why I'm speaking to you hypothetically for the purpose of argumentation. It's like, he doesn't exist but let's suppose he does for the sake of argument. -
MansaMusa67 wrote: »the whole concept of free will is that humans have the choice to make good/bad decisions. The Most High just will manipulate things based on the decisions men make to fall in line with his plan. So, the lives of men are effected directly by the choices that we make, but based upon scripture and the overall objective of the Most High, things work according to his will. So in a sense, he works almost like the men in that Movie "The Adjusters". But people so in fact make their own decisions. He only attempts to influence people down the correct path. If they choose not to obey, that's their perogative.
Right. This cannot be reconciled with the idea that ? created them knowing their decisions prior to their creation. If that were true, what he created was his will exclusively. Any so-called "will" of his creation is an illusory conception of the creation themselves.MansaMusa67 wrote: »No....
Okay well either you're just saying this or you really believe that; either way, this is where we disagree.MansaMusa67 wrote: »The people killed in the bomb were in the vicinity for a reason. But those people were not murdered because of the Most High's unwillingness to intervene. And who is to say certain people who may frequent the area where the bomb exploded were not prevented from being there because of "events" that occured that prevented them?
"The most high's" intervention has nothing to with this analogy. The bomb goes off. Some people are there and some aren't there.. of course. We don't need to go into detail about why or for what reason they were or weren't in the area at the time. If your roommate is building a bomb to detonate it in a crowd of innocent people and you do nothing to prevent that catastrophe, IMO you are also involved. You don't have to agree with that.MansaMusa67 wrote: »As the JUDGE of the actions of free willed beings, in this case, the Most High is not liable for the man's actions, but he will manipulate certain events to fulfill his WILL. Hope that makes sense.
Not only is he the judge, he is the creator of those beings. He manipulated their every thought when he created them. So they are ultimately not free willed. -
Its a few reasons why he allows evil. I can't get too deep in the game with all the reason but if u really think about it, doesn't it make for a better example of how powerful a being is when its one that allow us freedom to make our own choices but still able to get their way in the end?
IMO, it makes for a better example of how powerful an omnibenevolent being would be if that being were to allow us freedom to make our own choices while still being able to eliminate evil from our lives.I mean, directly step in. Hr doesn't have to DIRECTLY step in all thr time...He's already watching over us now, you still alive and well aren't you? But I know its the simple things like that we tend to take for granted. Thank ? for all the bad things that HAVEN'T happened, like not having an accident while driving and having food on the table... Dont just be thankful for the things he directly stepped in the picture to effect.
I'm alive and well but there are other people who aren't. There are other people in terrible conditions and situations, every single day. There are people who are more well-off than me who live fulfilling lives. This is the way we would expect the world to work if there were no omnibenevolent ? . There is good and there is bad. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »
No, I don't believe in ? . This is why I'm speaking to you hypothetically for the purpose of argumentation. It's like, he doesn't exist but let's suppose he does for the sake of argument.
I don't buy that excuse for 1 second Oceanic. ? says that every single soul, who is of the age of accountability, knows intrinsically and extrinsically that there is a ? . To say otherwise is a bold face lie, to which ? calls all who do fools.
1. Intrinsic evidence for the existence of ? = "He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what ? has done from the beginning to the end." Ecclesiastes 3:11
2. Extrinsic evidence for the existence of ? = "The heavens declare the glory of ? ; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Psalm 19:1 (read also Romans 1)
3. What ? calls all those who deny the truth = "Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no ? ." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!" Psalm 14:1
Somebody is lying here Oceanic. ? or you?
"yea, let ? be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3:4
Will you get out of the river de(NILE)? ? wants to take you out of Egypt and lead you to the Promised land! He wants to feed you with milk and honey. He wants to give your soul rest. He wants you to be at peace with Him. He wants to give you Eternal life! Why would any rational and sane being reject so great an offer as that?
He loves you my friend. Will you come to Him today? -
lmao
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@Oceanic
I am at work and I don't have the time to respond to everything that you said. Based on what I've read however, its seems as if your Absolute view of the world and the events that take place within it will never fall in line with the beliefs of thoe who worship the ? of Abraham.
Free will is free will. That means you have the ability to make your own choices. Now, while you may be influenced by an external source to an extent, your actions are exclusively yours. Now, with the Most High is both omniscient and omnipresent. So with a combination of both of these attributes, who is to say people cannot be used to fulfill his will while still holding on to thier free will? The Most High, being the creator of humans, understands human psychology and also knows each human being interpersonally. This means he has the ability to create certain environmental factors or influences to shift a persons free will to fall in linw tih his will. This is why I brought up the movie "The Adjusters". And based upon how a person lives, those influences can be "good" or "bad". But this doesn't mean that he is directly controlling the thoughts of that individual.
You also say that because The Most High is Omnipresent, he is not omnipotent because he did not stop evil when he inevitably knew it would come to fruition. But again, the free will of humans allows them to choose thier desitiny. And based on how you live, it determines what role you will play in The Most High's "movie" of Life. If that doesn't make sense I don't know what to say. Maybe i'm the wrong guy to explain this to you then..... -
The man of sin is alive right now, typing this to ya'll. It's coming soon...
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EmperorRises wrote: »The man of sin is alive right now, typing this to ya'll. It's coming soon...
So do you believe the Bible or not?
Cuz you're all over the place cuz.... -
I have not mentioned omnipresence.
