"Even if I say yes, it doesn't mean I mean yes" - Feminists

LUClEN
LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
TL;DR

There are certain feminists stating that yes does not mean consent, particularly if it is unenthusiastic. So no is always no and yes means no, too.

Did your wife say yes to sex last night? If so, you're a ?

On Wednesday evening at McGill University in Montreal, a group of
students and community activists assembled to discuss when “yes” doesn’t
actually mean yes. The Forum on Consent, which was also open to the
public, featured several panel participants who spoke to the question of
what we understand as “consent.” The theme was similar to a campaign
launched by a Nova Scotia coalition earlier this month — the More Than
Yes campaign — which contended that “sexual
consent is more than just a yes.” According to that campaign, and echoed
by the forum participants at McGill on Wednesday, /real/ consent “must
be loud and clear. Sex without enthusiastic consent is not sex at all.
It’s sexual assault or ? .”

This attention to sexual consent comes after a school year consumed by
stories of campus sexual assault. In September, St. Mary’s University in
Halifax came under fire after its frosh leaders were recorded leading a
pro-? chant. Days later, a similar story came out of the University
of British Columbia. A series of sexual assaults were later reported at
UBC, along with a couple of incidents at York University in Toronto. At
McGill, campus advocates launched a petition after learning that three
of the university’s football players were facing sexual assault charges.
Though the players quit the team after the news of their charges was
made public in November, members of McGill’s Union for Gender
Empowerment blamed the university for failing to take an active role
against “systemic forms of ? culture” on campus.

? culture was one of the concepts discussed by the Forum on Consent
panel, which contended that deniers of the phenomenon simply aren’t
looking beyond the obvious. It’s a fair point. But it’s also impossible
to claim that there is some sort of systemic, ex-panding mechanism of
sexual assault denial, especially when we have no real means to measure
its occurrence. There are no published records of sexual assaults on
Canadian campus, and even if there was, only a fraction of sexual
assaults are actually reported to authorities. Adding to the ambiguity
is the fluidity of certain definitions; to some, sexual assault includes
suggestive comments and lewd gestures. The use of this definition of
sexual assault might explain why some reports show that as many as one
in five female students will be sexually assaulted on campus. But you
can just as easily find statistics that show a /downward/ trend in terms
of sexual assaults in Canada, which, according to Statistics Canada,
have steadily declined since 1993. In short, there’s no objective
measure when it comes to evaluating trends of sexual assault.

And so, the suggestion that “yes” might actually mean “no” — or at the
very least, isn’t a /complete/ yes — further complicates any attempt to
really evaluate what’s going on. There’s no question that a “yes”
uttered under in response to a threat or under some other form of duress
does not constitute consent. Nor does an intoxicated “yes,” since an
individual loses the capacity to consent when under the influence of
alcohol and drugs. But the Forum on Consent takes the consent conundrum
to an entirely new level by suggesting that a meek “yes,” or a
nonchalant “yes,” or a “yes” without emphatic body language does not
constitute consent. According to the panel “It must be loud and clear.”

The message, undoubtedly, is that men should tune into their partners’
body language — as well as their words — before proceeding. It’s not a
bad idea. But in effect, telling men that “yes” doesn’t mean “yes” could
conceivably frighten them into bring a consent form on their next sexual
rendezvous. And I don’t blame them. If “yes” doesn’t constitute consent,
how can anyone be sure when to proceed? How much enthusiasm turns an
I-don’t-really-mean-it “yes” into a consent-granting “yes?” And what if
partners have different views on enthusiastic expressions through body
language? This suggestion also opens a Pandora’s box of another kind: If
a “yes” isn’t always a “yes,” how can we claim a “no” is always a “no?”
If words have no meaning without the corresponding body language,
wouldn’t a “no” have to be accompanied by physical manifestations of
denial? These are rhetorical questions, of course, and needless to say
that “no” still unequivocally means “no.” But these are the sorts of
complications that can arise when we undermine the validity of verbal
expressions, which are still the most objective measures of consent that
we have. Body language can be misinterpreted; words, by and large, are
pretty clear.

Members of the Forum on Consent Wednesday night lamented the fact that
“there are a lot of people who aren’t here who need to hear this
conversation.” But I suspect the message would do more to invoke fear in
the minds of men than greater assurance among women. If consent is only
granted with a loud, emphatic “YES,” a coy or shy sexual response
becomes a complex question of permission. It’s unnecessary. Especially
since in many marriages, for example, enthusiasm wanes as the years go
on — but that doesn’t mean men are abusing their wives. Needless to say,
most men wouldn’t think of making sexual advances where they are clearly
unwelcome. And when and if a situation is ambiguous, he will ask for
clarity: Yes, or no? It shouldn’t be any more complicated than that.
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Comments

  • JonnyRoccIT
    JonnyRoccIT Members Posts: 14,389 ✭✭✭✭✭
    lmaoooo these ? be so lost .
  • 1800skypager
    1800skypager Members Posts: 671 ✭✭✭✭
    What's a "Feminist"? LOL
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's a "Feminist"? LOL

    Someone with political views that favor women
  • iron man1
    iron man1 Members Posts: 29,989 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rasta. wrote: »
    Love-Contract-Dave-Chappelle.jpg

    He was ahead of the game with this ? . Anyway ? these broads with these unclear mindsets it's either you're down for some sex or you're not on to the next one.
  • Recaptimus_Prime360
    Recaptimus_Prime360 Members Posts: 64,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Foh with that logic. Smh.
  • gdatruth2.0
    gdatruth2.0 Members Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • A Talented One
    A Talented One Members Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭
    Feminist extremists.
  • Huey_C
    Huey_C Members Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bunch of ? trying to dictate ? , foh
  • Already Home_17
    Already Home_17 Members Posts: 14,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if no means no
    and yes means no...
    these ? aren't feminists
    they're confused lesbians
  • Shizlansky
    Shizlansky Members Posts: 35,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Women are taking over this country.

    Smmfh
  • jono
    jono Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The rationale behind this is the same as a contract. A contract can be voided if undue pressure is applied to one side.

    This is sex though, so these broads are being extremely obtuse and irrational. Folks ain't going through all that just to ? .
  • Will Munny
    Will Munny Members Posts: 30,199 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was watching a movie with a bish, didn't really wanna do anything with her she wasn't that cute, she reached down my pants and started jerking me off! I never said yes! I got the ? dry wristy of my life against my will!
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Will Munny wrote: »
    I was watching a movie with a bish, didn't really wanna do anything with her she wasn't that cute, she reached down my pants and started jerking me off! I never said yes! I got the ? dry wristy of my life against my will!

    Wouldn't matter

    yes means no
  • Purr
    Purr Members Posts: 32,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes means yes.
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Evilchuck wrote: »
    Yes means yes.

    spoken like a true male chauvinist pig
  • Lou Cypher
    Lou Cypher Members Posts: 52,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • FourEfil
    FourEfil Members Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Foh with that logic. Smh.

    Lack of
  • desertrain10
    desertrain10 Members Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Smh

    We are all guilty of making hast generalizations at times, but the generalizing about feminism has reached an all time high... and so has the hostility

    Yes there has been extremist out there who have tried to hijack the term...but sometimes I just don't get the hate

    At the end of the day, feminism is not a political party or an organization like the naacp...its just an umbrella term for a range of views about injustices against women....though I and a another woman may label ourselves feminist, it is also possible and highly probable we share differing view points, ideologies

    I myself have been highly inspired by the writings of angela davis ...my favorite feminist

    With that said, besides the fact they are female students, why do you consider them to be representative of the feminist movement?

    As far as consent goes, yes means yes...no means no....however silence doesn't necessarily mean 'yes' ... you have to take body language into consideration