OTTB Debate Topic 1: Being a HEEL is a lost art
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jono
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From ? Tonk Man:
Typical heel psychology being a lost art in today’s wrestling:
No one knows how to be a bad guy anymore and no one knows how to be a good guy and what you have now are just stunt men. You have a five minute match of all stunts as fast as you can go, as much as you can do and try to keep the people from changing the channel on the clicker because like I said before, the TV pays a lot of money. They want ratings and if they have ratings they sell ads, ads cost more if the ratings are higher. It’s a television product now, we were a wrestling show on television. Now it’s a television show that features wrestling. I say that about this other thing that we used to have, it was a football game and it was televised and called the Super Bowl. Now it’s a big television show that features a football game where the Half Time advertisements more people know about those then who is playing in the game and it’s the same thing with wrestling. It’s a TV show called RAW now that’s what it is.
Read more at http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/704935-? -tonk-man-talks-ric-flair-incident#WrY1YrVpw7kOSMub.99
Typical heel psychology being a lost art in today’s wrestling:
No one knows how to be a bad guy anymore and no one knows how to be a good guy and what you have now are just stunt men. You have a five minute match of all stunts as fast as you can go, as much as you can do and try to keep the people from changing the channel on the clicker because like I said before, the TV pays a lot of money. They want ratings and if they have ratings they sell ads, ads cost more if the ratings are higher. It’s a television product now, we were a wrestling show on television. Now it’s a television show that features wrestling. I say that about this other thing that we used to have, it was a football game and it was televised and called the Super Bowl. Now it’s a big television show that features a football game where the Half Time advertisements more people know about those then who is playing in the game and it’s the same thing with wrestling. It’s a TV show called RAW now that’s what it is.
Read more at http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/704935-? -tonk-man-talks-ric-flair-incident#WrY1YrVpw7kOSMub.99
OTTB Debate Topic 1: Being a HEEL is a lost art 8 votes
Agree
37%
![[Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/e5577fbcab3d39c9b35d3d720b4dacee.svg)
3 votes
Disagree
12%
1 vote
In the middle
50%
4 votes
Comments
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EC3:
The “lost art” of being a wrestling heel:
I’m a big fan of the antagonist. I’ve always been, whether it’s film, books, wrestling. Some of the best of all time like Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, Steve Austin as a heel. My favorite all-time antagonist character was only for a few months, Hollywood Rock. He was entertaining you to an extent where you wanted to see him get beat up, that’s the job of the bad guy. People want to pay money to see him get beat up. I think that’s kind of lost now to a lot of people. A lot of bad guys now want to get respect. I don’t see it that way. If I’m bad, I’m the worst. I’m ? .
Read more at http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/561233-ec3-talks-bill-demott-controversy-the-lost-art-of-being-a-heel-wrestling-sting#9wIpEgPj3yal2a3x.99 -
JR:
The days of being a 100% babyface or 100% villain in pro wrestling are likely over and if not over certainly nearing an end and at best is on life support. Smart booking, in rng execution, creative tweaks, etc likely won't change this trend that is society influenced more than it is wrestling influenced in my opinion. Something as straight forward as the broadcast of the NFL Draft and how the live audience responded over a three day period is certainly proof that our society is one of overt defiance and for being outspoken in essentially all forums which would have been unheard of just a few years ago.
This is not a sign of the end times for pro wrestling but it does indicate that decision makers must create with these issues in mind and present their products more smartly and with today's ticket buyer/TV viewer in mind more than ever. It will also affect how broadcasters present the product, too.
Times they are a changing and this isn't our granddaddy's rasslin' business any more.
http://www.jrsbarbq.com/blog/49543 -
I'll answer after I have time to read all of wat u posted, but I'm pretty much in agreement already, slick feel like ko n maybe Samoa Joe the only ones who know wat they doin heel wise in wwe at least
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The heels could never compare to those of yesteryears. Wont count HHH because hes from the 90s school, Punk did a good job (but was still cheered), Edge was cool, Randy had moments but everyone else was lightweight heel
no one wants to be a good guy and those who end up with a babyface role are made to be wack, 2nd to Cena, and are booed.
Everyone wants to be a tweener -
Miz is the best heel on the roster. He deserves that respect. He does everything he is supposed to do from a character perspective to get heat. How he dresses, speaks, walks, his attitude its awesome
Jericho is up there too but he isn't a regular roster guy so he doesn't really count. -
How could I forget miz
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Peezy_Jenkins wrote: »I'll answer after I have time to read all of wat u posted, but I'm pretty much in agreement already, slick feel like ko n maybe Samoa Joe the only ones who know wat they doin heel wise in wwe at leastMiz is the best heel on the roster. He deserves that respect. He does everything he is supposed to do from a character perspective to get heat. How he dresses, speaks, walks, his attitude its awesome
Jericho is up there too but he isn't a regular roster guy so he doesn't really count.
Miz is w/o question the best heel in wrestling today.
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Bray and KO are great heels. New Day were great heels. Even Seth Rollins, ? the rest of the roster.
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Thats why ko is young goat
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AgreeI just think the art of being both heel & face are simply lost. The last great baby face that I can say that were overwhelming and genuinely liked by crowds were Stone Cold & Rock. Then again they didn't overstay their welcome in WWE either.
I think in this era when it comes to great heels I think KO, Samoa Joe, Bray, & Miz (even though his "Hollywood gimmick is tired) are the best. When it comes to making great babyfaces outside of Cena in the last 10-15 yrs, WWE has done an absolutely ? job. Most of the faces are either dull or boring due which fans end up seeing through the ? in long haul because the creative is just not there example: Roman Reigns. -
Mark Henry with the hall of pain was the last great heel
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i think the baby face side is a lot better than the heel side
yes a lot of em come off contrived and corny
but then u have someone like DB -
but yea miz prolly is the best heel easily
i said ko earlier, but maybe i should have said he's the best(or my favorite) character -
its so hard to be a successful heel tho imo
people end up thinkin they cool vs wwe's vanilla babyfaces sometimes
it works for miz cuz he's obnoxious and has won at life so people wanna beat his ass.
ko falls in that "cool" category imo but he knows right when to be an ass an fire the crowd up. his wit and timing is impeccable.
i saw some of that in new day when they were heels but not enough. -
In the middleIm a bit on the fence on this one. I get the reasons why people would look on it as a lost art though. If we look at it from the WWE perspective, the days of being a full blown heel are long gone. Last real full Heel in the WWE (This one is up for debate) would be William Regal.
The problem with Heels in WWE these days, is that people on message boards and IWC usually tend to side with whomever they put up against Cena (boy that one is getting old).
These last few years have seen some heels show up. But the less said about the Wyatt Familys shortcomings the better, i guess. On the current roster there are some people that would look wierd as faces: Lesnar, Wyatts, Corbin, Owens, Anderson & Gallows and Rusev. Then you have some superstars who people just dont into get as faces. The Miz and Reigns are good examples for different reasons. Mark Henry always looked like a deer in the headlights as a face as well. I will not comment on the Social outcasts as they basically are the Job Squad. The simplistic directon of WWE have made sure that i will be a while before being a heel means anything.
I think another reason is that since there is no more mystery about the industry. Remember in 96 when WCW would interrupt a match on nitro because Hall and Nash were beating people up backstage? (20 years ago. Now i feel old af) It was just after Bash at the Beach that year. Even though it was wrestling, and keyfabe was dying around that time. fans were still kept in the dark about what would happen next. Seeing people getting carried into waiting ambulances and having people who were feuding at the time (Horsemen, Sting, Savage and Luger) all being present and standing in a moment of confusion about what would happen next.
Those are things that we are not likely to see again. Some of the indies still book logically.
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I think Cena killed the vanilla baby face era. He was soooo ? wack that it was the death of it. So ppl fear their favorite wrestlers turning into that cornball ass wigga. We can have face wrestlers but they can't be wannabe black, confederate flag totting thug boys like Cena that can't wrestle. They have to be genuine face characters like DB.
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It's not that hard just don't be from Boston unless your Mark Wahlberg.
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In the middlethere are still a few that can still pull it off Stephanie (the biggest heel in the company), Jericho, Kevin Owens and the Miz to name a few.
but the really compelling/entertaining heels like Owens end up getting mixed reaction because they are so damn good being heel and fans can be 'smarky' -
fans will boo and cheer whoever, heel or face be damned
i remember jericho trying to get heat a few weeks ago from a crowd who was cheering him. he called them stupid idiots. not only did they cheer louder, they chanted "we are idiots"
? is mind boggling -
In the middleBangEm_Bart wrote: »It's not that hard just don't be from Boston unless your Mark Wahlberg.
Eddie Edwards and Kevin Sullivan says hello. From Boston and Cambridge Mass. Respectively. But I kinda agree on the Cena issue
