Silver Surfer VS Superman?

jaxn

Thor beat Surfer like 3 different times in the Blood and Thunder story. Dismissing it as a jobfest doesn't change that fact. And overstating Thanos' ? nose as "jobbing" also doesn't help your case.

again, everyone jobbed to Thor in B&T...most folks who actually read comics know this. If you think Thor can just ? Thanos up then you're fooling yourself.

In the case with Loki, Surfer was not depowered. His powers were amplified by Loki. Surfer himself states that Thor's hammer should be to much for him to contain and that Loki must be adding to his power. Yet, Surfer still lost.

no the Surfer was depowered by Galactus. He couldn't even leave Earth. As I originally said, their fights always have extenuating circumstances with one trying to fight and other trying to talk

The more recent fights as you have said have been stalemates. I'm not saying that Thor is a brick and Surfer is a pillow, but I certainly don't see any reason to believe Surfer is above Thor when it comes to raw strength and durability.

so again, all of these losses you keep speaking of are against Thor? [/quote][/quote]

Look, we've already been over the examples. If you don't want to accept them that's on you. I've already pointed out that Thor beat Surfer 3 times in the same event. You want to say it doesn't count because it was jobbing. That's not a canon or comic related explanation, but ok.

I gave you the Loki example. You want to say it doesn't count because it wasn't Surfer's own power even though Surfer himself said that the power feeding him was superior to his own and acknowledged that Thor's hammer was superior to his own power. In other words, Surfer was actually stronger than his normal limits and still lost.
[/quote]

I never said it didn't count. I said those fights involved extenuating circumstances, which they did. I then asked what other losses you're talking about other than B&T Thor and a Loki example. You haven't provided anything to support your claim. Thor has stated that a warning shot fired at him by the Surfer would've killed him..however i don't use that to discuss their battles. In MOST of their fights, Thor is the aggressor while Surfer is trying to talk. I'm saying the recent battles are stalemates to be fair, but when one opponent is actively trying to ? the other opponent and is unable to even hurt him, that says alot about the other character. If you're using his fights with Thor to come to a conclusion about this particular fight then you're not taking into consideration that Thor has an enchanted mallet custom made to fight against Surfer. Superman doesn't have this luxury.[/quote]

I can only go by the fights they've had. If you're going to look at each fight and say "Oh there is an extenuating circumstance there" then no fight will ever be good enough. There are always extenuating circumstances for something like this. Surfer and Thor are both heroes. So there is always going to have to be something crazy going on for them to fight, and at least one of them will always be hesitant about fighting. That doesn't change the fact that in all the times they have fought they've either stalemated or Thor has battered Surfer. It's a fact. You can keep asking me to provide fights while simultaneously ignoring fights, but that doesn't change reality.
[/quote]
Look you brought it up, but then you're only using fights he's had with Thor. If you've read these fights then you'll know there were other elements involved. I can say going by their lastest fights Thor can't even hurt the Surfer but that wouldn't be fair to their continuity. so again i ask, what are these other losses you talked about that he should win but don't?

And Thor having an enchanted mallet doesn't mean much. It's not like he has used the finer powers of the hammer in their fights. He pretty much has used it to exclusively to bludgeon Surfer.

oh word? His hammer didn't mean much? i take it you're familiar with the hammer right?

Thor can probably strike a planet with his hammer and turn it into space rubble. Superman can do the same thing with his fists.

so are you claiming that Superman punches as hard as Mjolnir?

When you're talking about people who are basically indestructible, the difference between them striking with their own body parts or with a weapon of some type is minimal.

yeah i guess you can say that if we're talking about some average hammer he picked up at Lowes, but of course we both know that's not the case.[/quote]

I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make. My point was that Surfer can be beaten by people who appear to be more brute force oriented like Thor and Surfer. I pointed out that Surfer has been beaten in just such a manner by Thor in the past. That's a fact. You want to come in here and harp on extenuating circumstances. That's silly IMO. Pretty much all comic fights have extenuating circumstances. The fact of the matter is that Surfer has been beaten numerous times by Thor with just brute force. So it's reasonable to believe that Superman, someone who at times seems outright unbeatable and impervious to damage can do the same.
[/quote]
you don't understand my point in the difference between Superman and Thor? Thor isn't a brick. He's as versatile as the Surfer thanks to Mjolnir. You first brought up these losses and when asked about it, you're only talking about Thor who possesses a weapon Superman does not. I really don't care what you find silly. If you're going to debate a fight using the books then do so and no most fights don't have circumstances in which one combatant isn't even trying to fight. The thing about your argument is that Thor isn't using just his fists to fight the Surfer..Superman does not have mjolnir

And yes I believe that Superman can punch has hard as Thor can strike with Mjolnir. Do you have some proof that he can't?

what the hell? ok man, i can just leave this alone. You believe Superman punches as hard as Mjolnir and then ask me for proof? no you made the claim, so you prove it. I'm sure you're going to have a hard time proving that ridiculous claim

Do you have some feat of striking force that Thor has shown with Mjolnir that Superman has been proven to be incapable of? Mjolnir is powerful because it has a ton of Thor's own power locked into it.

incorrect, Mjolnir has powers that Thor doesn't have..Mjonir is powerful because Odin enchanted it with abilities that Thor doesn't possess. He can use the hammer to channel his own weather abilities.

Yes, it is more powerful than any normal hammer, but most of that power has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

sure it does. you just fail to see..and considering you think Mjolnir is just Thor's power than I see why there's confusion

We're not talking about how he can use it to absorb energy or cast spells or control the weather. We're simply talking about Thor using it to beat on Surfer with. Yes it's enchanted to be very hard to break, but you know what else is very hard to break? Superman's fists. So there really is no advantage there.

[/quote]
yeah it's enchanted to be very hard to break..man just stop. If you don't see the difference between Superman and Thor then we can just let this go since there's no point. You're just beginning to make claims now. Superman punches as hard as mjolnir...Superman's fists are hard to break, i mean seariously? so yeah agree to disagree

As to this thread, Surfer wins the majority

The Lonious Monk

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

evoljeanyes

"Whoever wields the hammer if he be worthy shall inherit the power of Thor"

I think that's a good indication that the hammer holds Thor's powers.

You guys are arguing points without counter points. Thor hurting Thanos doesn't make it a job fest it makes it trill. Thor has damn near every power with the mallet in tow.

The mallet has powers that thor doesn't possess without it but supes punches match that of mjolnir physical attacks easy. Supes is souped the ? up.

@jaxn you're fighting unfairly you can't ask for scans and then not provide them. This is for comic book discussion.

Point was supes can hurt surfer. We all think surfer wins off skill-set.
You're obviously knowledgeable be you turn know-it-all condescending ? too quickly. This doesn't have to be hostile conversation

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

Honestly the examples of him KOing Silver Surfer, KOing the Hulk, and feats of that nature are above Superman. Silver Surfer by definition of his powers and their description from Marvel has the durability to where Supernovas don't scratch him, planet busters are by that logic, light hits, and the likes of Hulk fail to physically hurt him. Yet Mjornir does hurt him.

Same with Hulk being hit by Juggernaut, had his entire body disintegrated by an anti-matter beam of sorts, tanked a Supernova/Lightning combo from Torch/Storm, etc. and yet Mjornir KO's him, sometimes in one hit.

That is beyond Superman's strength of 200 quintillion tons or being able to pierce the moon at high speeds and being able to drag the earth.

A.J. Trillzynski

anyone with reasonable comic book knowledge understands it'd be a fair fight - some of ya'll just have a Marvel bias

DarkRaiden

A.J. Trillzynski wrote: »

anyone with reasonable comic book knowledge understands it'd be a fair fight - some of ya'll just have a Marvel bias

Funny that you say that cause it's literally the complete opposite. If you have comic book knowledge, you'd know that Silver Surfer is more than Superman's match in every way. Everything from his durability, his faster than flash speed (at times), his cosmic power, his time traveling ability, his astral plane powers, his mental powers, the fact that he can make a black hole, his molecular manipulation, and the fact that he can literally drain the energy from Superman and his cosmic awareness will tell him about Supes's weaknesses.

There is literally no way for Superman to win other than PIS.

The Lonious Monk

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

Honestly the examples of him KOing Silver Surfer, KOing the Hulk, and feats of that nature are above Superman. Silver Surfer by definition of his powers and their description from Marvel has the durability to where Supernovas don't scratch him, planet busters are by that logic, light hits, and the likes of Hulk fail to physically hurt him. Yet Mjornir does hurt him.

Same with Hulk being hit by Juggernaut, had his entire body disintegrated by an anti-matter beam of sorts, tanked a Supernova/Lightning combo from Torch/Storm, etc. and yet Mjornir KO's him, sometimes in one hit.

That is beyond Superman's strength of 200 quintillion tons or being able to pierce the moon at high speeds and being able to drag the earth.

This is incorrect. It's using the logic that surviving one thing automatically means a character will survive everything else of equal or lesser threat. That may be a reasonable thought in real life, but not in comics. I'll give you an example. Like you said, Surfer has survived supernovas and blackholes, but when he fought Odin he was one-shotted by a blast that wasn't even planet busting strength from what we saw. And are we really going to act like Superman hasn't beaten high level threats too. Yes, Thor has KOed Surfer and Hulk, but Superman has beaten up on some heavy hitters on the DC side too.

Also Hulk is a bad example because his power canonically fluctuates. I don't know when he was ever one-shotted by Mjolnir, but I do know that he's been in at least one extended confrontation where Thor admits he was going all out and couldn't put Hulk down. Hulk took everything Thor had, got bored, and just left the fight.

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

Honestly the examples of him KOing Silver Surfer, KOing the Hulk, and feats of that nature are above Superman. Silver Surfer by definition of his powers and their description from Marvel has the durability to where Supernovas don't scratch him, planet busters are by that logic, light hits, and the likes of Hulk fail to physically hurt him. Yet Mjornir does hurt him.

Same with Hulk being hit by Juggernaut, had his entire body disintegrated by an anti-matter beam of sorts, tanked a Supernova/Lightning combo from Torch/Storm, etc. and yet Mjornir KO's him, sometimes in one hit.

That is beyond Superman's strength of 200 quintillion tons or being able to pierce the moon at high speeds and being able to drag the earth.

This is incorrect. It's using the logic that surviving one thing automatically means a character will survive everything else of equal or lesser threat. That may be a reasonable thought in real life, but not in comics. I'll give you an example. Like you said, Surfer has survived supernovas and blackholes, but when he fought Odin he was one-shotted by a blast that wasn't even planet busting strength from what we saw. And are we really going to act like Superman hasn't beaten high level threats too. Yes, Thor has KOed Surfer and Hulk, but Superman has beaten up on some heavy hitters on the DC side too.

Also Hulk is a bad example because his power canonically fluctuates. I don't know when he was ever one-shotted by Mjolnir, but I do know that he's been in at least one extended confrontation where Thor admits he was going all out and couldn't put Hulk down. Hulk took everything Thor had, got bored, and just left the fight.

Bad example considering that Odin casually creates and destroys Star systems as results of him fighting. So any blast form him is likely to be >>>planet busting and even>>a supernova. Plus it's not the fact that he has one off feats of surviving them, it's that Marvel themselves literally define his durability by it and use it often in his description. Thus, in Marvel's mind, his base at least is Supernova +, while Superman isn't generally on that level.

And usually when Superman takes on real heavy hitters, they are jobbing or it's PIS.

Also Hulk fluctuates because of his popularity. There have been times when Thor has taken down Hulk with his bare hands, others where he one-shotted him, others where Hulk refused to fight him and took a hostage, demanding he put down his hammer, but it's generally accepted that Thor>>>Hulk especially with his showings against the likes of Surfer.

The Lonious Monk

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

Honestly the examples of him KOing Silver Surfer, KOing the Hulk, and feats of that nature are above Superman. Silver Surfer by definition of his powers and their description from Marvel has the durability to where Supernovas don't scratch him, planet busters are by that logic, light hits, and the likes of Hulk fail to physically hurt him. Yet Mjornir does hurt him.

Same with Hulk being hit by Juggernaut, had his entire body disintegrated by an anti-matter beam of sorts, tanked a Supernova/Lightning combo from Torch/Storm, etc. and yet Mjornir KO's him, sometimes in one hit.

That is beyond Superman's strength of 200 quintillion tons or being able to pierce the moon at high speeds and being able to drag the earth.

This is incorrect. It's using the logic that surviving one thing automatically means a character will survive everything else of equal or lesser threat. That may be a reasonable thought in real life, but not in comics. I'll give you an example. Like you said, Surfer has survived supernovas and blackholes, but when he fought Odin he was one-shotted by a blast that wasn't even planet busting strength from what we saw. And are we really going to act like Superman hasn't beaten high level threats too. Yes, Thor has KOed Surfer and Hulk, but Superman has beaten up on some heavy hitters on the DC side too.

Also Hulk is a bad example because his power canonically fluctuates. I don't know when he was ever one-shotted by Mjolnir, but I do know that he's been in at least one extended confrontation where Thor admits he was going all out and couldn't put Hulk down. Hulk took everything Thor had, got bored, and just left the fight.

Bad example considering that Odin casually creates and destroys Star systems as results of him fighting. So any blast form him is likely to be >>>planet busting and even>>a supernova. Plus it's not the fact that he has one off feats of surviving them, it's that Marvel themselves literally define his durability by it and use it often in his description. Thus, in Marvel's mind, his base at least is Supernova +, while Superman isn't generally on that level.

And usually when Superman takes on real heavy hitters, they are jobbing or it's PIS.

Also Hulk fluctuates because of his popularity. There have been times when Thor has taken down Hulk with his bare hands, others where he one-shotted him, others where Hulk refused to fight him and took a hostage, demanding he put down his hammer, but it's generally accepted that Thor>>>Hulk especially with his showings against the likes of Surfer.

Why is it that comic fans think that because a person is capable of a feat, they always operate at that level. Odin can destroy galaxies, but that wasn't a galaxy busting blast he hit Surfer with. Clearly, if it was galaxy or even planet busting there would have been a lot more collateral damage. It was a casual blast. One that Thanos took but Surfer couldn't

And WTF at these stupid arguments you guys are making. Everything that you don't agree with is jobbing now? Superman takes on heavy hitters because that's who he is. That's why he gets the "overpowered" tag. How the hell is it jobbing if the accomplishment is generally believed to be within the character's powerset. Superman is a lot more powerful than the level he normally operates at. That's canonical fact. You don't have to like him as a character. I'm not a Superman fan by any stretch, but it's silly to deny his capabilities just to try an win this debate.

And again, with the silly out of comic explanations for things. We're not talking about popularity here. Hulk's power fluctuates because it's written into the very nature of his powers to do so. His strength is directly proportional to his rage. So he gets stronger the angrier he is. KOing him with the first attack in a fight is not the same feat as KOing him during a prolonged battle where he's super ? . And yes, Thor is generally accepted as being more powerful than Hulk on the whole and physically as strong or slightly stronger than base Hulk, but I haven't seen anyone argue that that Thor is physically stronger than Hulk under all conditions. That would be stupid considering Hulk's potential for rage and thus strength is unlimited. In other words, if we're using out of comic arguments, Hulk is one of the few characters that actually is as strong as the writer wants him to be.

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims. If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute. Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists. If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous. Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

Honestly the examples of him KOing Silver Surfer, KOing the Hulk, and feats of that nature are above Superman. Silver Surfer by definition of his powers and their description from Marvel has the durability to where Supernovas don't scratch him, planet busters are by that logic, light hits, and the likes of Hulk fail to physically hurt him. Yet Mjornir does hurt him.

Same with Hulk being hit by Juggernaut, had his entire body disintegrated by an anti-matter beam of sorts, tanked a Supernova/Lightning combo from Torch/Storm, etc. and yet Mjornir KO's him, sometimes in one hit.

That is beyond Superman's strength of 200 quintillion tons or being able to pierce the moon at high speeds and being able to drag the earth.

This is incorrect. It's using the logic that surviving one thing automatically means a character will survive everything else of equal or lesser threat. That may be a reasonable thought in real life, but not in comics. I'll give you an example. Like you said, Surfer has survived supernovas and blackholes, but when he fought Odin he was one-shotted by a blast that wasn't even planet busting strength from what we saw. And are we really going to act like Superman hasn't beaten high level threats too. Yes, Thor has KOed Surfer and Hulk, but Superman has beaten up on some heavy hitters on the DC side too.

Also Hulk is a bad example because his power canonically fluctuates. I don't know when he was ever one-shotted by Mjolnir, but I do know that he's been in at least one extended confrontation where Thor admits he was going all out and couldn't put Hulk down. Hulk took everything Thor had, got bored, and just left the fight.

Bad example considering that Odin casually creates and destroys Star systems as results of him fighting. So any blast form him is likely to be >>>planet busting and even>>a supernova. Plus it's not the fact that he has one off feats of surviving them, it's that Marvel themselves literally define his durability by it and use it often in his description. Thus, in Marvel's mind, his base at least is Supernova +, while Superman isn't generally on that level.

And usually when Superman takes on real heavy hitters, they are jobbing or it's PIS.

Also Hulk fluctuates because of his popularity. There have been times when Thor has taken down Hulk with his bare hands, others where he one-shotted him, others where Hulk refused to fight him and took a hostage, demanding he put down his hammer, but it's generally accepted that Thor>>>Hulk especially with his showings against the likes of Surfer.

Why is it that comic fans think that because a person is capable of a feat, they always operate at that level. Odin can destroy galaxies, but that wasn't a galaxy busting blast he hit Surfer with. Clearly, if it was galaxy or even planet busting there would have been a lot more collateral damage. It was a casual blast. One that Thanos took but Surfer couldn't

And WTF at these stupid arguments you guys are making. Everything that you don't agree with is jobbing now? Superman takes on heavy hitters because that's who he is. That's why he gets the "overpowered" tag. How the hell is it jobbing if the accomplishment is generally believed to be within the character's powerset. Superman is a lot more powerful than the level he normally operates at. That's canonical fact. You don't have to like him as a character. I'm not a Superman fan by any stretch, but it's silly to deny his capabilities just to try an win this debate.

And again, with the silly out of comic explanations for things. We're not talking about popularity here. Hulk's power fluctuates because it's written into the very nature of his powers to do so. His strength is directly proportional to his rage. So he gets stronger the angrier he is. KOing him with the first attack in a fight is not the same feat as KOing him during a prolonged battle where he's super ? . And yes, Thor is generally accepted as being more powerful than Hulk on the whole and physically as strong or slightly stronger than base Hulk, but I haven't seen anyone argue that that Thor is physically stronger than Hulk under all conditions. That would be stupid considering Hulk's potential for rage and thus strength is unlimited. In other words, if we're using out of comic arguments, Hulk is one of the few characters that actually is as strong as the writer wants him to be.

Didn't say it was galaxy busting, just that it was likely planet busting+ considering Odin is a casual galaxy buster. Thanos tanking it means nothing as he's far above planet busting capability. And you can't take collateral damage as an indication of how strong the blast is. Most comics don't deal with that until they retcon some nonsensical ability in to deal with it.

Superman doesn't beat anyone on Silver Surfer's level except Darkseid. Darkseid's abilities dictate he should stomp Superman, he doesn't and thus it is PIS and jobbing, same way many people job to wolverine and Batman.

No one else is really high level that Superman beats without some random new item they give him. Also Darkseid is literally known as jobberseid by many people due to him losing to weaker people like Superman all the time.

I'd like to hear about a heavy hitter on Surfer's level that Superman takes down regularly and if it exists, it's probably because of jobbing.

Also no one said Thor>>>Hulk's potential, cause Hulk's potential is infinite, but Thor is 99% of the time>>>>Hulk. Period.

Also all characters are as strong as the writer wants him to be. That's why Spiderman has wins over Hulk and Juggernaut and Firelord.

The Lonious Monk

DarkRaiden wrote: »

Didn't say it was galaxy busting, just that it was likely planet busting+ considering Odin is a casual galaxy buster. Thanos tanking it means nothing as he's far above planet busting capability. And you can't take collateral damage as an indication of how strong the blast is. Most comics don't deal with that until they retcon some nonsensical ability in to deal with it.

Superman doesn't beat anyone on Silver Surfer's level except Darkseid. Darkseid's abilities dictate he should stomp Superman, he doesn't and thus it is PIS and jobbing, same way many people job to wolverine and Batman.

No one else is really high level that Superman beats without some random new item they give him. Also Darkseid is literally known as jobberseid by many people due to him losing to weaker people like Superman all the time.

I'd like to hear about a heavy hitter on Surfer's level that Superman takes down regularly and if it exists, it's probably because of jobbing.

Also no one said Thor>>>Hulk's potential, cause Hulk's potential is infinite, but Thor is 99% of the time>>>>Hulk. Period.

Also all characters are as strong as the writer wants him to be. That's why Spiderman has wins over Hulk and Juggernaut and Firelord.

What proof do you have that it was planet busting? It just seemed like a simple blast. There was no collateral damage anything at all. One thing we've seen in comics pretty consistently is that when someone lets loose attacks of that magnitude, they tend to cause a lot of collateral destruction. Surfer himself has destroyed a planet simply charging himself up and releasing the energy in a fight. Yet, your assumption is that the blast that Odin let loose was of planet busting magnitude despite not doing anything but KOing Surfer. Ok, and that's based on what?

I'm not going to argue the DC heavy hitter point anymore. I know Superman has fought and beaten some powerful enemies, but honestly I don't read enough DC comics to do in depth on that.

Thor being >>>> Hulk 99% of the time is nonsense. If you're going to make a claim like that, provide proof. Again we're talking about raw physical strength not overall power. If you're talking about overall power then I agree.

Spiderman outsmarted Juggernaut so that's not a strength feat. And everyone and his/her mother regards Spiderman beating Firelord the way he did as bad writing. That was my point. Hulk can pretty much be written at any insane level of strength and it will be accepted because it's part of his character and powerset. You can't say that about all characters. Spiderman can't just go lift the Shield helicarrier and have it accepted. However, Hulk could punch a planet to dust and people would let it slide if it was established that he was insanely angry or something.

Rondre Sleaze Twin

Has anyonne read the supes/surfer crossover and supes was in awl of his power

Rondre Sleaze Twin

Thats why ss is herald level and supes is elite top tier

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

Didn't say it was galaxy busting, just that it was likely planet busting+ considering Odin is a casual galaxy buster. Thanos tanking it means nothing as he's far above planet busting capability. And you can't take collateral damage as an indication of how strong the blast is. Most comics don't deal with that until they retcon some nonsensical ability in to deal with it.

Superman doesn't beat anyone on Silver Surfer's level except Darkseid. Darkseid's abilities dictate he should stomp Superman, he doesn't and thus it is PIS and jobbing, same way many people job to wolverine and Batman.

No one else is really high level that Superman beats without some random new item they give him. Also Darkseid is literally known as jobberseid by many people due to him losing to weaker people like Superman all the time.

I'd like to hear about a heavy hitter on Surfer's level that Superman takes down regularly and if it exists, it's probably because of jobbing.

Also no one said Thor>>>Hulk's potential, cause Hulk's potential is infinite, but Thor is 99% of the time>>>>Hulk. Period.

Also all characters are as strong as the writer wants him to be. That's why Spiderman has wins over Hulk and Juggernaut and Firelord.

What proof do you have that it was planet busting? It just seemed like a simple blast. There was no collateral damage anything at all. One thing we've seen in comics pretty consistently is that when someone lets loose attacks of that magnitude, they tend to cause a lot of collateral destruction. Surfer himself has destroyed a planet simply charging himself up and releasing the energy in a fight. Yet, your assumption is that the blast that Odin let loose was of planet busting magnitude despite not doing anything but KOing Surfer. Ok, and that's based on what?

I'm not going to argue the DC heavy hitter point anymore. I know Superman has fought and beaten some powerful enemies, but honestly I don't read enough DC comics to do in depth on that.

Thor being >>>> Hulk 99% of the time is nonsense. If you're going to make a claim like that, provide proof. Again we're talking about raw physical strength not overall power. If you're talking about overall power then I agree.

Spiderman outsmarted Juggernaut so that's not a strength feat. And everyone and his/her mother regards Spiderman beating Firelord the way he did as bad writing. That was my point. Hulk can pretty much be written at any insane level of strength and it will be accepted because it's part of his character and powerset. You can't say that about all characters. Spiderman can't just go lift the Shield helicarrier and have it accepted. However, Hulk could punch a planet to dust and people would let it slide if it was established that he was insanely angry or something.

It's by definition planet busting + BECAUSE of the fact that it KO'd Surfer who has planet level durability. Plus it's Odin who is Casually a Galaxy Buster, meaning it would actually take effort to shoot a beam weaker than a planet buster.

The Thor>>>Hulk 99% of the time is overall power. As far as pure strength, it's probably 70% of the time.

And no, Hulk's writing isn't always accepted as proof of the criticism of Red Hulk and World War Hulk. I have seen people criticize WWH for being a Hulk job fest due to the fact he beat people like Blackbolt, Dr. Strange and Sentry who he usually can't touch. It wasn't just accepted ? nilly as 100% truth.

Also seriously, just name some heavy hitters. It's not hard, by not arguing the point you're making it invalid and probing you can't back up the claim.

Point is Surfer<=>Thor>>>>Superman

The Lonious Monk

DarkRaiden wrote: »

It's by definition planet busting + BECAUSE of the fact that it KO'd Surfer who has planet level durability. Plus it's Odin who is Casually a Galaxy Buster, meaning it would actually take effort to shoot a beam weaker than a planet buster.

The Thor>>>Hulk 99% of the time is overall power. As far as pure strength, it's probably 70% of the time.

And no, Hulk's writing isn't always accepted as proof of the criticism of Red Hulk and World War Hulk. I have seen people criticize WWH for being a Hulk job fest due to the fact he beat people like Blackbolt, Dr. Strange and Sentry who he usually can't touch. It wasn't just accepted ? nilly as 100% truth.

Also seriously, just name some heavy hitters. It's not hard, by not arguing the point you're making it invalid and probing you can't back up the claim.

Point is Surfer<=>Thor>>>>Superman

Again, you're relying on a fallacy. Just because Surfer has shown the ability to survive planet busting levels of attacks in the past doesn't mean it takes that level of attack to KO him. That may be reasonable realistically, but in comics it doesn't work. Characters have low level showings, high level showings, and everything in the middle and they aren't always consistent. So you cant take a high level showing and then automatically assume that every other showing is commensurate with that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that blast from Odin was planet busting besides this twisted logic you're using. Considering, the blast hit Surfer and did no damage at all to the surrounding area, it's a good bet it wasn't a planet buster.

lol @ Thor >>> Hulk in pure strength 70% of the time. Again, what do you have to substantiate that? Why are you just pulling out random numbers and quoting them as truth. I'm not sure what your WWH point is supposed to be. In straight up brawls, Hulk could take Blackbolt, Dr. Strange, and Sentry. The reason those fights were called jobfests is because none of them should have been limited to simple brawls. In other words, they fought in ways not representative of their true powers just to allow Hulk to win. That's why it was jobbing. And even then, of the three you mentioned, only Dr. Strange was really a case of jobbing. WWH was him at his absolute strongest ever. In that state, there is no reason he couldn't take Blackbolt or Sentry in a fist fight.

And your inequality just seems like fanboy favoritism to me. Both Surfer and Thor are much more versatile than Superman, but when it comes to raw physical power which is what we're talking about neither of them are anywhere near that far above him.

jaxn

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

lol It's hilarious how you keep asking me for examples for things (despite ignoring those very examples), but you refuse to provide anything to back your claims.

I haven't ignored your B&T Thor reference. I asked you to provide examples of all of these losses you claim he should win and you've yet to do that. What claim have I refused to back up exactly?

If me saying that Thor hitting with Mjolnir is not substantially more powerful than Superman's fists is so stupid, then it should be easy to refute.

Do you know how debates work? You made this claim so its on you to prove it

Like I said, post Thor hitting something with Mjolnir and causing damage that Superman couldn't do with his fists.

Why do I have to do your homework for you? If you're so familiar with the characters you'd know that Superman's fists does not hold the same striking power as mjolnir; however, since you've made the claim then you need to prove that

If you do that, I'll admit I'm wrong. But until you can do that quit trying to act like what I'm saying is so ridiculous.

well it is

Right about now it seems like you're arguing fueled by nothing more than bias. You have yet to provide anything of substance to back your claims despite constantly asking for proof from the other side.

bias? haha ok I have about as many Thor comics as I do Surfer, so there's no bias. I'm actually asking you to provide some kind of knowledge of what you're speaking of. So far you can only tell me about Surfer's fights with Thor from 3o years ago. Even further you seem to not want to take into consideration the circumstances of those fights. If you want to begin making claims such as Superman's fists are as hard as mjolnir then you need to back that up with something..I can say something like since Galacuts hasn't been shown to help hold the world in place (Superman, GL, WW, MM feat), then he obviously is incapable of doing such a feat...

jaxn

evoljeanyes wrote: »

"Whoever wields the hammer if he be worthy shall inherit the power of Thor"

I think that's a good indication that the hammer holds Thor's powers.

Yes, the hammer allows Thor to channel his ability even further, but the hammer possesses far greater power than what Thor possess

You guys are arguing points without counter points. Thor hurting Thanos doesn't make it a job fest it makes it trill. Thor has damn near every power with the mallet in tow.

no, it makes it jobbing based on the history between the characters

The mallet has powers that thor doesn't possess without it but supes punches match that of mjolnir physical attacks easy. Supes is souped the ? up.

ok now prove this claim.

@jaxn you're fighting unfairly you can't ask for scans and then not provide them. This is for comic book discussion.

I never asked for scans, only the instances of these "losses" he brought up. No scans are needed since i have most of them

Point was supes can hurt surfer. We all think surfer wins off skill-set.

no, thats not the point. His argument was Superman winning based on how Thor fights Surfer, but the only thing with this, is that Superman does not have mjolnir

You're obviously knowledgeable be you turn know-it-all condescending ? too quickly. This doesn't have to be hostile conversation

? meet kettle..I didn't come into this thread calling others delusional

jaxn

Rondre Sleaze Twin wrote: »

Has anyonne read the supes/surfer crossover and supes was in awl of his power

they don't want to hear you though

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

DarkRaiden wrote: »

It's by definition planet busting + BECAUSE of the fact that it KO'd Surfer who has planet level durability. Plus it's Odin who is Casually a Galaxy Buster, meaning it would actually take effort to shoot a beam weaker than a planet buster.

The Thor>>>Hulk 99% of the time is overall power. As far as pure strength, it's probably 70% of the time.

And no, Hulk's writing isn't always accepted as proof of the criticism of Red Hulk and World War Hulk. I have seen people criticize WWH for being a Hulk job fest due to the fact he beat people like Blackbolt, Dr. Strange and Sentry who he usually can't touch. It wasn't just accepted ? nilly as 100% truth.

Also seriously, just name some heavy hitters. It's not hard, by not arguing the point you're making it invalid and probing you can't back up the claim.

Point is Surfer<=>Thor>>>>Superman

Again, you're relying on a fallacy. Just because Surfer has shown the ability to survive planet busting levels of attacks in the past doesn't mean it takes that level of attack to KO him. That may be reasonable realistically, but in comics it doesn't work. Characters have low level showings, high level showings, and everything in the middle and they aren't always consistent. So you cant take a high level showing and then automatically assume that every other showing is commensurate with that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that blast from Odin was planet busting besides this twisted logic you're using. Considering, the blast hit Surfer and did no damage at all to the surrounding area, it's a good bet it wasn't a planet buster.

lol @ Thor >>> Hulk in pure strength 70% of the time. Again, what do you have to substantiate that? Why are you just pulling out random numbers and quoting them as truth. I'm not sure what your WWH point is supposed to be. In straight up brawls, Hulk could take Blackbolt, Dr. Strange, and Sentry. The reason those fights were called jobfests is because none of them should have been limited to simple brawls. In other words, they fought in ways not representative of their true powers just to allow Hulk to win. That's why it was jobbing. And even then, of the three you mentioned, only Dr. Strange was really a case of jobbing. WWH was him at his absolute strongest ever. In that state, there is no reason he couldn't take Blackbolt or Sentry in a fist fight.

And your inequality just seems like fanboy favoritism to me. Both Surfer and Thor are much more versatile than Superman, but when it comes to raw physical power which is what we're talking about neither of them are anywhere near that far above him.

What? There's no fallacy. Marvel's bio for Surfer states he can tank supernovas. His middle showings have him tanking planet busters with ease. Thus he is at least planet level durability. Thus when something hut or KOs him it must be planet busting or PIS. Period.

Surfer's high end feats are beating Entities that are Galactus level and exuding so much power cosmic it was stated he had potential to be stronger than Galactus. None of those are being used.

And the numbers are me guestimating based off of how they are written. And btw being written to brawl with Hulk for no reason whatsoever is jobbing. And IIRC Blackbolt used his voice (that usually KOs Hulk with a whisper) and still lost. That's why they retconned it to being a Skrull with Blackbolt like powers since it made no sense.

Dr. strange jobbed cause usually he's >>Hulk as is Sentry. No one's talking pure strength with Hulk unless I specify. A job is a job. And for Superman to win, Surfer would have to job.

The Lonious Monk

jaxn wrote: »

I haven't ignored your B&T Thor reference. I asked you to provide examples of all of these losses you claim he should win and you've yet to do that. What claim have I refused to back up exactly?

What are you talking about? You asked me for examples where Thor beat Surfer physically. In this very post you acknowledge that I gave them and then turn around and say I didn't. I'm confused. Are we talking about different things here.

Do you know how debates work? You made this claim so its on you to prove it

What is there for me to prove? What is the highest level feat Thor has with a hammer strike? I admit it could be wrong, but I'd say it's on the level of busting a planet. Superman has done the same with his fists. If their high level feats are comparable then you its reasonable to assume that their power is comparable. If you believe this is wrong, you either have to point out the error in logic or prove the statement wrong. You haven't done either.

Why do I have to do your homework for you? If you're so familiar with the characters you'd know that Superman's fists does not hold the same striking power as mjolnir; however, since you've made the claim then you need to prove that

Like I said, I already provided the argument supporting my claim. If you have something that refutes it, then please provide it. Otherwise quit acting like you've proven me wrong when all you've done is given your opinion just like me.

well it is

Still don't see any proof or even a well thought out argument.

bias? haha ok I have about as many Thor comics as I do Surfer, so there's no bias. I'm actually asking you to provide some kind of knowledge of what you're speaking of. So far you can only tell me about Surfer's fights with Thor from 3o years ago. Even further you seem to not want to take into consideration the circumstances of those fights. If you want to begin making claims such as Superman's fists are as hard as mjolnir then you need to back that up with something..I can say something like since Galacuts hasn't been shown to help hold the world in place (Superman, GL, WW, MM feat), then he obviously is incapable of doing such a feat...

I have no problem taking into account the circumstances. I simply don't believe that they can be disregarded as simply as you are trying to do. And your argument Galactus argument is stupid. We've seen him fling planets like ninja stars in the past, so we know he's capable of doing what those others did. You're trying to make it seem like Thor striking with Mjolnir is so much more powerful than Superman punching despite there being nothing to really support such a statement. That's why I say your arguments are built on bias. You scoff at the idea that Superman can punch as hard as Thor can strike with his hammer, but have yet to even make an argument for why that's untrue.

jaxn

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

jaxn wrote: »

I haven't ignored your B&T Thor reference. I asked you to provide examples of all of these losses you claim he should win and you've yet to do that. What claim have I refused to back up exactly?

What are you talking about? You asked me for examples where Thor beat Surfer physically. In this very post you acknowledge that I gave them and then turn around and say I didn't. I'm confused. Are we talking about different things here.

No, I originally asked you to talk about the losses you claimed Surfer should win..when you brought up Thor, I asked you specifically if these were the losses you were speaking of and then went on to explain the differences between Thor and Superman, namely mjolnir.

Do you know how debates work? You made this claim so its on you to prove it

What is there for me to prove?

I guess your assertion that Superman's fists pack the same striking power as mjolnir

What is the highest level feat Thor has with a hammer strike? I admit it could be wrong, but I'd say it's on the level of busting a planet. Superman has done the same with his fists. If their high level feats are comparable then you its reasonable to assume that their power is comparable. If you believe this is wrong, you either have to point out the error in logic or prove the statement wrong. You haven't done either.

what planet has Superman destroyed with his fists? And no its not up to me to prove your claim. I never suggested that Superman's fists are as strong as Thor's hammer. Superman and Thor are comparable in strength as it is without the hammer

Like I said, I already provided the argument supporting my claim. If you have something that refutes it, then please provide it. Otherwise quit acting like you've proven me wrong when all you've done is given your opinion just like me.

but you didn't. you just said Superman's fists hit as hard as mjolnir, without anything backing that up

bias? haha ok I have about as many Thor comics as I do Surfer, so there's no bias. I'm actually asking you to provide some kind of knowledge of what you're speaking of. So far you can only tell me about Surfer's fights with Thor from 3o years ago. Even further you seem to not want to take into consideration the circumstances of those fights. If you want to begin making claims such as Superman's fists are as hard as mjolnir then you need to back that up with something..I can say something like since Galacuts hasn't been shown to help hold the world in place (Superman, GL, WW, MM feat), then he obviously is incapable of doing such a feat...

I have no problem taking into account the circumstances. I simply don't believe that they can be disregarded as simply as you are trying to do.

again, i didn't disregard it

And your argument Galactus argument is stupid. We've seen him fling planets like ninja stars in the past, so we know he's capable of doing what those others did.

it's about as silly as you saying what has Thor did with mjolnir that Superman can't do with his fists

You're trying to make it seem like Thor striking with Mjolnir is so much more powerful than Superman punching despite there being nothing to really support such a statement.

Mjolnir does have more striking power than Superman

That's why I say your arguments are built on bias. You scoff at the idea that Superman can punch as hard as Thor can strike with his hammer, but have yet to even make an argument for why that's untrue.

yes i do scoff at the idea but its up to you to prove this is the case. But here I'll give you an example of a situation both heroes faced. One with Superman's fists and the other with Thor's hammer..JLA/Avengers, last issue, as Thor was taking on a horde of DC villians, Superman was striking at a door trying to get to Kronus..he was unable to, thus Thor allowed Superman to use his hammer...Superman was amazed at the power and destroyed said object with one blow from mjolnir..now when i get home i can look at the book and give detailed specifics..

The Lonious Monk

Ok, so we using crossovers now? So are we not going to acknowledge that in one of those very crossovers, Superman beat Thor? Doesn't that basically dead this whole argument.

DarkRaiden

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

Ok, so we using crossovers now? So are we not going to acknowledge that in one of those very crossovers, Superman beat Thor? Doesn't that basically dead this whole argument.

I'm not to use crossovers as they are pretty uncanon and useless, but that wouldn't dead the argument necessarily as Supes pretty much stated Thor>him and because beating Thor has nothing to do with beating Surfer as they have different powers and it's a totally different matchup.

Also because crossovers flip flop alot. In one Supes somehow beat Juggernaut IIRC and in another was getting sonned by Venom.

So no, crossovers don't really count tbh.

evoljeanyes

Supes can let 20quintillion tons I imagine mjolnir can't be much stronger than that amount of force. This argument is ridiculous...Superman basically one shotted hulk...hulk takes mjolnir to the face a number of times so now lets make the reference to that and say supes has more power than mjolnir. They are both variably strong but they have high feats of very similar levels. The argument is dumb for real.

DarkRaiden

evoljeanyes wrote: »

Supes can let 20quintillion tons I imagine mjolnir can't be much stronger than that amount of force. This argument is ridiculous...Superman basically one shotted hulk...hulk takes mjolnir to the face a number of times so now lets make the reference to that and say supes has more power than mjolnir. They are both variably strong but they have high feats of very similar levels. The argument is dumb for real.

Crossovers don't count unless we want to talk about how Supes lost to Venom. So him one shotting Hulk means nothing, and btw Mjornir has too.

20 quintillion tons<<<<<<<6.6 sextillion tons which is IIRC around how much the Earth weighs. Mjornir can bust a planet, aka around 6 or so sextillion tons of force. Also lifting 200 quintillion doesn't mean you punch with the force of 200 quintillion at all.