Is fleeing to Hong Kong a good look when the U.S Gov't wants your head?
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In choosing to go to Hong Kong, Edward Snowden, the former C.I.A. tech, who leaked news of the U.S. government’s collection of private Internet and telephone data, put himself at the intersection of forces more powerful than what he called that city’s “commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.” He’s not wrong about that commitment—it’s one of Hong Kong’s most appealing distinctions—but going to Hong Kong out of devotion to free speech is a bit like going to Tibet out of a devotion to Buddhism; the people love it, though they live under authorities who intervene when they choose. On Monday Wen Yunchao, a liberal blogger in Hong Kong, wrote that Snowden has gone “out of the tiger’s den, and into the wolf’s lair.”
Assuming that he has not already departed—he may have—will the decision about his future be up to authorities in Hong Kong or Beijing? Both. The local government’s extradition treaty with the U.S. allows either side to refuse in matters of political offense, but Hong Kong coöperates closely with American law enforcement, and local lawyers could not recall a case when extradition was blocked for political reasons. The Beijing government has veto power when “defense, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy” is on the line, and while it might prefer to avoid openly meddling in a case that would inflame Hong Kong’s local sensibilities, it can make its preferences felt, and it has little incentive to protect Snowden from his own government.
Hong Kong, of course, is one of China’s two “special administrative regions,” (the other is Macau)—former colonies that returned to Chinese control in the nineteen-nineties with the assurance that Beijing would handle foreign and intelligence affairs but would not seek full political control for a period of fifty years. Fundamentally, Hong Kong remains an oasis of freedom compared to the mainland, although there is an ongoing debate about how much interference has moved in around the edges. Last week, Hong Kong held its annual demonstration to commemorate the crackdown at Tiananmen Square, in 1989—the anniversary was suppressed on the mainland—but the Hong Kong Journalists Association found in its most recent survey, last year, that eighty-seven per cent of its members “thought that Hong Kong now enjoys less freedom than” in 2005. Dissidents who would offend Beijing have been denied visas to enter Hong Kong, and the latest U.S. State Department report on Human Rights in Hong Kong (irony noted), says, among various positive and critical observations, that “there was a widespread public perception that police abuse of power increased dramatically during the year.”
It is doubtful that Beijing sees a net advantage in holding on to Snowden as a bargaining chip. Neither side likes exogenous ingredients in complex diplomacy. When the persecuted blind laywer Chen Guangcheng sought refuge at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing, in 2012, it caused nearly as much agitation among American officials as did it among their Chinese counterparts. Xi Jinping has just returned to Beijing from a summit with President Obama, in which both sides sought to downplay differences and emphasize an attempt to accommodate each other’s interests, up to a point. Beijing spends much of its time trying to persuade other governments to send back former or current government officials who have fled abroad. Without my making any judgment on the virtues of Snowden’s actions, the U.S. government perceives him in much the same light that the Chinese government perceives its cadres who flee abroad in order to publicize wrongdoing or to escape debts or prosecution for corruption. The Chinese state media frequently describes diplomatic efforts to “pave the way for the return of hundreds of government officials wanted for graft” and it has crowed about gaining greater coöperation from the United States.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/evanosnos/2013/06/what-will-china-do-with-edward-snowden.html
LOL, this suicidal muhfucka
if he don't ? there ASAP this gon end like the scene in The Wire where Chris n Snoop hand over Hungry Man to Cheese. Chinese gov't down w/ the Stop Snitchin' movement. Why would you go there instead of Cuba or Venezuela or Iran?
Assuming that he has not already departed—he may have—will the decision about his future be up to authorities in Hong Kong or Beijing? Both. The local government’s extradition treaty with the U.S. allows either side to refuse in matters of political offense, but Hong Kong coöperates closely with American law enforcement, and local lawyers could not recall a case when extradition was blocked for political reasons. The Beijing government has veto power when “defense, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy” is on the line, and while it might prefer to avoid openly meddling in a case that would inflame Hong Kong’s local sensibilities, it can make its preferences felt, and it has little incentive to protect Snowden from his own government.
Hong Kong, of course, is one of China’s two “special administrative regions,” (the other is Macau)—former colonies that returned to Chinese control in the nineteen-nineties with the assurance that Beijing would handle foreign and intelligence affairs but would not seek full political control for a period of fifty years. Fundamentally, Hong Kong remains an oasis of freedom compared to the mainland, although there is an ongoing debate about how much interference has moved in around the edges. Last week, Hong Kong held its annual demonstration to commemorate the crackdown at Tiananmen Square, in 1989—the anniversary was suppressed on the mainland—but the Hong Kong Journalists Association found in its most recent survey, last year, that eighty-seven per cent of its members “thought that Hong Kong now enjoys less freedom than” in 2005. Dissidents who would offend Beijing have been denied visas to enter Hong Kong, and the latest U.S. State Department report on Human Rights in Hong Kong (irony noted), says, among various positive and critical observations, that “there was a widespread public perception that police abuse of power increased dramatically during the year.”
It is doubtful that Beijing sees a net advantage in holding on to Snowden as a bargaining chip. Neither side likes exogenous ingredients in complex diplomacy. When the persecuted blind laywer Chen Guangcheng sought refuge at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing, in 2012, it caused nearly as much agitation among American officials as did it among their Chinese counterparts. Xi Jinping has just returned to Beijing from a summit with President Obama, in which both sides sought to downplay differences and emphasize an attempt to accommodate each other’s interests, up to a point. Beijing spends much of its time trying to persuade other governments to send back former or current government officials who have fled abroad. Without my making any judgment on the virtues of Snowden’s actions, the U.S. government perceives him in much the same light that the Chinese government perceives its cadres who flee abroad in order to publicize wrongdoing or to escape debts or prosecution for corruption. The Chinese state media frequently describes diplomatic efforts to “pave the way for the return of hundreds of government officials wanted for graft” and it has crowed about gaining greater coöperation from the United States.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/evanosnos/2013/06/what-will-china-do-with-edward-snowden.html
LOL, this suicidal muhfucka
if he don't ? there ASAP this gon end like the scene in The Wire where Chris n Snoop hand over Hungry Man to Cheese. Chinese gov't down w/ the Stop Snitchin' movement. Why would you go there instead of Cuba or Venezuela or Iran?
Comments
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its ? ? on his part.
what was his point...to help the american public understand?
honestly some of these white people are crazy an need to be monitored. hey ? it up for everyone. its not the arabsor muslims...its these damn white folks that fukk up so much but the end result is they catch the black man or muslim red handed.
what are we talking about......yea that fukk ...its not a good look -
The only way I can see China keeping him is if he has some classified information they would be interested in.
Even then, there's no guarantee that they still wouldn't turn him over after they got what they wanted.
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seems to undermine the idea of saying "i'm taking a principled stand that i know affects my life, i won't run" and then immediately run off to a foreign nation. yeah, yeah, i know, asylum and all, but still, guys like Ellsberg didn't flee in the country while taking that kind of stand.
that said, it's much more likely China (if they exert such influence over HK) gets him sent back to the US because he doesn't really benefit them BUT they'll get credit for kicking someone like Snowden back the next time they're asking the US to extradite someone. -
I agree Hong Kong may not have been the best choice to go to but the one thing he did do smart was make himself public, as he now has many supporters out there, including myself. Now that if something happens to him, we all know the crooked American govt killed him and who knows how many leaks will come out after that. I wish Snowden the best of luck.
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its ? ? on his part.
what was his point...to help the american public understand?
honestly some of these white people are crazy an need to be monitored. hey ? it up for everyone. its not the arabsor muslims...its these damn white folks that fukk up so much but the end result is they catch the black man or muslim red handed.
what are we talking about......yea that fukk ...its not a good look
There's nothing cowardly about what he did. He's risking his life to inform the American public to the wild crooked things American govt is up to. Understand how crooked the feds are, and realize now they have complete access to our emails and ALL online information. Now imagine what a crooked govt official can do with banking info we put online. Considering the CIA and ? knows what other agencies would love to see him disappeared, I'd say what Snowden did is far from ? ? . He's one of the biggest heroes I've witnessed in a long time. Most ? out here are so ? made, including Obama, that they won't do anything to stand up against the system. -
Less "free" , more " free" none of that means ? in the end, "freedom" is a floating signifier.
Running to HK because he thought it was "more free" made zero sense. I respect the fact that he's a whistleblower and i sup -
I support what he did, but he should have stared down the consequences and let the chips fall where they may. He saw what they did to Bradley Manning and was still brave enough to take that chance but running to China didnt help and wasnt going to.
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Apparently Russia has taken an interest in him:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum_n_3420576.html
"Russia would consider granting asylum to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. " -
my guesses for his reasoning in going there... he's a white programmer so he probably has the yellow fever and also he's trying to get paid.
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You guys don't seem to understand World dynamics. He fled to Hong Kong because its harder for the US to get him extradited from there. Look at Assange when he was seeking help in Europe....they put a fasle ? charge on him.
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He could have gone to much better countries to escape extradition, je chose Hong Kong, that was poor decision making on his part, please believe hes gonna be extradited.
Should have gone to Cuba, but i'm sure his politics led him to HK thinking he would be "free".
A smart man doesnt even disclose where he is in the first place, he could have done the interview via skype or some related program and kept his location relatively secret. -
i don't think the problem here is that we "don't understand World dynamics"ThaNubianGod wrote: »You guys don't seem to understand World dynamics. He fled to Hong Kong because its harder for the US to get him extradited from there. Look at Assange when he was seeking help in Europe....they put a fasle ? charge on him.
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So far it seems he has informed the Chinese government of how the U.S. is accessing and tracking their data bases as well as others countries,
how "patriotic" of him eh? -
konceptjones wrote: »Apparently Russia has taken an interest in him:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum_n_3420576.html
"Russia would consider granting asylum to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "
lol
pretty sure they will not be the only country making him ....an offer
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seriously, someone answer this, and try to look past the "surprising & shocking" news that the government can track and monitor it's citizens communications:
With the classified , top secret information this guy has on U.S. National Intelligence, that undoubtedly goes beyond surveillance,
how much do you think that is worth to America's enemies and ""frenemies" ...... i.e. China, Russia, Pakistan etc. -
seriously, someone answer this, and try to look past the "surprising & shocking" news that the government can track and monitor it's citizens communications:
With the classified , top secret information this guy has on U.S. National Intelligence, that undoubtedly goes beyond surveillance,
how much do you think that is worth to America's enemies and ""frenemies" ...... i.e. China, Russia, Pakistan etc.
That would depend on alot. The nature, amount, his proof, whether its true or not, and what countries are involved. You seem to believe hes a spy when that hasnt been established yet. As of right now the only people hes given info to is the press, who really should be investigating this stuff themselves, and thats it.
Its not even known how damaging his info can be. For all we know hes told all he knows.
As far as other countries are concerned there are a lot of other hands and eyes to gather intel from within intelligence communities so they dont necessarily need him.
If he were gonna give info away or sell it he could have butas far as we know now he didnt and so we shouldnt even be discussing it.
We SHOULD be discussing how to stop it. -
* how to stop info collection by corporations and the Gov
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That would depend on alot. The nature, amount, his proof, whether its true or not, and what countries are involved. You seem to believe hes a spy when that hasnt been established yet. As of right now the only people hes given info to is the press, who really should be investigating this stuff themselves, and thats it.
Its not even known how damaging his info can be. For all we know hes told all he knows.
As far as other countries are concerned there are a lot of other hands and eyes to gather intel from within intelligence communities so they dont necessarily need him.
If he were gonna give info away or sell it he could have butas far as we know now he didnt and so we shouldnt even be discussing it.
We SHOULD be discussing how to stop it.
He said the government has absolute access and monitors 300 million people emails,phone, texts etc.
I don't recall him ever him offering any solid irrefutable proof, evidence or example of this, but people believe him to be telling the truth.
As I'm sure he knew many would, and not question his motives other then "love of country and freedom" -
But let me be clear here , it's not that I doubt the U.S. government's capacity OR willingness to do mass surveillance but that's a debate that needs to be held by American citizens with their elected officials, not China's or any other country .
and as of right now, with the revelations he is giving the Chinese media/ government classified info on America 's Intelligence gathering of other countries, including China itself.
So I don't think he is a spy per say, and he is definitely not a "hero"
But I do think he is very,VERY cunning and a master manipulator
And it's fast becoming my opinion that he only gave the people here a "bone" to chew on about something most had already assumed was taking placed with the passing of the PATRIOT ACT.
Think...
let's get past the fear,paranoia and distrust of the government for a second (something always used to great effect,specially in this case)
This guy hacks into top secret National Intelligence security systems, leaks what he believes is a infringement on civil liberties because he felt morally and ethically compared to do so.
And what he does next? The flies off to China.
Suddenly Russia what's to offer him "asylum".........and we are to believe all of this is "poor planning" on his part because he is sooooo "a fear" for his life
sure, ok
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But let me be clear here , it's not that I doubt the U.S. government's capacity OR willingness to do mass surveillance but that's a debate that needs to be held by American citizens with their elected officials, not China's or any other country .
and as of right now, with the revelations he is giving the Chinese media/ government classified info on America 's Intelligence gathering of other countries, including China itself.
So I don't think he is a spy per say, and he is definitely not a "hero"
But I do think he is very,VERY cunning and a master manipulator
And it's fast becoming my opinion that he only gave the people here a "bone" to chew on about something most had already assumed was taking placed with the passing of the PATRIOT ACT.
Think...
let's get past the fear,paranoia and distrust of the government for a second (something always used to great effect,specially in this case)
This guy hacks into top secret National Intelligence security systems, leaks what he believes is a infringement on civil liberties because he felt morally and ethically compared to do so.
And what he does next? The flies off to China.
Suddenly Russia what's to offer him "asylum".........and we are to believe all of this is "poor planning" on his part because he is sooooo "a fear" for his life
sure, ok
He exposed the truth and that's good enough for me. ? all that patriotic ? , considering how crooked this govt has been over the past few (many) years, why should he be patriotic to a nation that treats its own citizens as criminals? I can understand spying on people the govt suspects are terrorists, but to read the emails and track online records of ALL Americans is the least patriotic thing I can think of. You ever heard of the 4th amendment? Read it......the govt does not have the right to intrude on citizens' privacy without a warrant. -
That would depend on alot. The nature, amount, his proof, whether its true or not, and what countries are involved. You seem to believe hes a spy when that hasnt been established yet. As of right now the only people hes given info to is the press, who really should be investigating this stuff themselves, and thats it.
Its not even known how damaging his info can be. For all we know hes told all he knows.
As far as other countries are concerned there are a lot of other hands and eyes to gather intel from within intelligence communities so they dont necessarily need him.
If he were gonna give info away or sell it he could have butas far as we know now he didnt and so we shouldnt even be discussing it.
We SHOULD be discussing how to stop it.
He said the government has absolute access and monitors 300 million people emails,phone, texts etc.
I don't recall him ever him offering any solid irrefutable proof, evidence or example of this, but people believe him to be telling the truth.
As I'm sure he knew many would, and not question his motives other then "love of country and freedom"
He's released tons of documents proving what he's saying...... -
has he ACTUALLY done this? because he's also said he didn't take or release information he could have.kingblaze84 wrote: »He's released tons of documents proving what he's saying......
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ok...so he so called exposed the truth.
why go and try to side with our closest enemy who is know for wiretapping and steal data over the internets and hacking?
that makes no sense.
he can go anywhere but he choose hong kong and trying ti get to china.
that doesnt make him sound like a hero....that makes him sound selfish.
look at what assange did....he didnt need to go to china to inform the public.
you can help the public understand whats going on without hurting the public. you dont think he gonns go to china an give up more info? -
hmmmm
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what I'm trying to convey on this
It's not that he leaked that the government is and has been for years collecting communication records on people
but seeing how it's becoming clear that many people are uneducated and ignorant
to exactly what is in the PATRIOT ACT, this sudden revelation is understandably shocking and surprising
the concern and shouts of "traitor" is coming from the fact of him accessing systems that did not pertained to his area of operation (job). And him leaking the procedures and process of how the U.S. is collecting Intel and surveillance nationally and around the world.
And what will be the long term ramifications for U.S. National Security of him sharing information with China and possibly other nations .
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has he ACTUALLY done this? because he's also said he didn't take or release information he could have.kingblaze84 wrote: »He's released tons of documents proving what he's saying......
So who released all those documents the newspapers claim to have? Even if he didn't bring out documents, someone close to him did. And for the record, sources say Snowden DID release documents so....
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-10/world/39873306_1_intelligence-community-access-documents
Counterintelligence investigators are scrutinizing how a 29-year-old contractor who said he leaked top-secret National Security Agency documents was able to gain access to what should be highly compartmentalized information, according to current and former administration and intelligence officials.
Edward J. Snowden worked as a systems administrator at an NSA Threat Operations Center in Hawaii, one of several such facilities that are tasked with detecting threats to government computer systems. He has previously worked for the CIA, U.S. officials said.
Snowden leaked documents to The Washington Post and Britain’s Guardian newspaper on distinctly different operations: the NSA’s collection of data from U.S. phone call records and its surveillance of online communications to and from foreign targets.
