Did Italians originate the mafia??
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Lustchyld
Members Posts: 987 ✭✭✭✭
I know its generally accepted that it started there, but as we all know, oftentimes history gets lost in translation or distorted (i.e. the slave trade with american blacks). Is there any evidence that suggests the mafia originated elsewhere. Just curious.
Comments
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For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
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what is commonly referred to as the Mafia? yes, as well as other organized crime syndicates in Italy. but ORGANIZED CRIME surely predates them.
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No. The blackhand existed during the days of moorish power in the region. Sicioy was a base for alot of african moors hence theorigination of the so called mafia.
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Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese. -
Exactly, which is why I made this thread. When was the earliest recorded history of organized crime? Scholars where the ? yall at?what is commonly referred to as the Mafia? yes, as well as other organized crime syndicates in Italy. but ORGANIZED CRIME surely predates them.
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
Yo let me get that if you dont mind -
The beginning of time. -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
Yo let me get that if you dont mind
Not a problem...will be up in a bit.
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I know the Yakuza have been around for a great deal of time.
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...
I would have say that Meyer Lansky is probably the greatest gangster in the history of organized crime, (with strong arguments being made for Arnold Rothstein, Lucky Luciano, and Carlo Gambino) If I'm not mistaken Lansky every did any pen time either, (state or feds.)
You seem to be well versed in the history of the mob and this is something I've wondered. Why is the Genovese Crime Family named after Vito Genovese and not Luciano as for the the other families, (E.g. the Gambinos being named after Carlo Gambino and not Albert Anastasia. I think it was Anastasia who formed what is now known as the Gambino Crime Family,) Or are the families named after who was ever boss at the time the Feds decided to put a name to them?
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The beginning of time.
the beginning of time predates recorded history
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FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
Yo let me get that if you dont mind
Here's the first sets I've uploaded -- http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/8867576/file.html
Those books are heavily on Chicago, NY and even Whitey B. (Boston Irish Mob )
The next set has the book on the BMF based in Philly.
*Edited* -- here's the last set: http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/35433027/file.html -
Maximus Rex wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...
I would have say that Meyer Lansky is probably the greatest gangster in the history of organized crime, (with strong arguments being made for Arnold Rothstein, Lucky Luciano, and Carlo Gambino) If I'm not mistaken Lansky every did any pen time either, (state or feds.)
You seem to be well versed in the history of the mob and this is something I've wondered. Why is the Genovese Crime Family named after Vito Genovese and not Luciano as for the the other families, (E.g. the Gambinos being named after Carlo Gambino and not Albert Anastasia. I think it was Anastasia who formed what is now known as the Gambino Crime Family,) Or are the families named after who was ever boss at the time the Feds decided to put a name to them?
I'm going by memory here, might have to double check....
Vito was one of the original guys who founded the Five Families ...so that why it was in his name. Let's me get the link and brief history on founders of the 5, and who became who under which family. Anastasia didn't formed the Gambino...Anastasia was under one of the 5, and once Gambino took his spot, they made it in his name because Gambino was literally a "boss of bosses". He wasn't to be ? with.
Edited -- while Vito was one of the original guys...he was the original underboss in Lucky's family first, partly because Vito was dangerous as a young turk among young turks. When Lucky went away, Vito took over the family and was the longest tenure boss, hence the family having his name
Lucky Luciano,Frank Costello (who rule when Vito had to go on the run for a murder charge right after Lucky was deported), Vito Genovese, Vincent "The Chin" Gigante.......basically that order -
Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Morphine, Heroin. -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
Yo let me get that if you dont mind
Here's the first sets I've uploaded -- http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/8867576/file.html
Those books are heavily on Chicago, NY and even Whitey B. (Boston Irish Mob )
The next set has the book on the BMF based in Philly.
*Edited* -- here's the last set: http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/35433027/file.html
props man -
The beginning of time.
the beginning of time predates recorded history
That wasnt really meant to be taken literally. Humans have been and forever will be on some gorilla ? . -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Maximus Rex wrote: »For one "mafia" is an Italian word and the organization that is known as the "Black Hand" (a criminal organization,) is from Sicily, (Palermo.) Though there were another organized criminal syndicates made of up other ethnic groups (such as Jewish, (e.g. Meyer Lansky and the Purple Gang out Detriot ) Irish ( e.g. Bugs Moran and the Westies,) it was the Italians who were the most organized and eventually became the ones that garnered the most power and political clout. What I trip off of is where did the Jewish and Irish organized crime syndicates go? Those ? just seemed to vanish like ? and ? dens.
Actually no. There's a guy who wasn't even Sicilian but held most of the power in the Outfit (The Chicago Mafia):
"The ? " -- Murray Humphreys
He was Welsh, but actually the brains behind most of the Outfit and really the one relaying the orders. Basically he was the inspiration for "Tom Hagen" in the Godfather.
mafia.wikia.com/wiki/Murray_Humphreys
As for the Jewish gang, Meyer wasn't no slouch...Lucky would had never survive the onslaught after nearly getting killed in the Castellammarese War ....after Lucky recovered from the scarring, it's was Meyer's brain who help Lucky figure out the revenge and basically ending the war. And when Lucky was exported, Meyer basically ran the gang. There's a book called Nocturne Havana, that basically shows Meyer had that power..
Meyer's power extended to giving the go ahead to take out Bugsy Sigel ..and on top of that, he had the power to give approval to take out the Mafia boss at one time -- Albert Anastasia (head of Murder Inc, the guy John Gotti modeled himself after).
Meyer was so good at this, he tripled crossed the guy (who hated Meyer) who wanted to take out Albert, once Albert was taken out, Meyer set that guy up on a narc charge....Vito Genovese.
hmmm....interesting
I have ebooks links on the mafia if you want them. The book called "The Outfit" is exhaustive ..it goes into detail on The ? .
Yo let me get that if you dont mind
Here's the first sets I've uploaded -- http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/8867576/file.html
Those books are heavily on Chicago, NY and even Whitey B. (Boston Irish Mob )
The next set has the book on the BMF based in Philly.
*Edited* -- here's the last set: http://www31.zippyshare.com/v/35433027/file.html
good looks on the bmf ? -
Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
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The mafia is no doubt Italian but I wouldn't say it was the 1st organized crime ever in history
But what we know as the Mafia is no doubt Italian
The clergy and royalty were similar to the mafia -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta? -
FuckYouSayWillis? wrote: »Don't want to let this thread died out...........any other questions on the mafia?
Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? I've heard that a couple of times, and read and seen some evidence of that.
If it's true, what keeps the Mexican cartels (who are next door to America) and the leaders of the most powerful street gangs from cutting them out? And what about 'Ndrangheta?
Do gangs ever cross over like Mafia running part of Latin Kings or Gangster Disciples runing part of bloods? -
well, it's not like the 'Ndrangheta aren't Italian in origin, right? and does this mean we're overlooking the Camorra (and maybe the SCU, who i think literally no one likes to throw in there)?Ignorant question but: Are La Costra Nostra (the American Italian Mafia?) really the most powerful crime organization in America, and do they control most crime in America? ... And what about 'Ndrangheta?
really, i think you're going to find that "most powerful" probably depends on specifically what region/type of crimes you're talking about.
