Light-skinned black woman: It is hard to be friends with darker black women
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Funny how when a lightbright femme cites personal issues that're supposedly rooted in Colorism, she's "brave" and "just being honest;" Yet when a brown/darskin woman does the exact same thing, she's being divisive and insecure.
Again...a baseless statement. -
Your disagreement with something doesn't make it "baseless."
There have been many, many instances of browner/darker skinned women's protests against Colorism being met with apathy and criticism. To deny that simply means you haven't been paying attention, and frankly aren't qualified to participate in this discussion. -
Your disagreement with something doesn't make it "baseless."
There have been many, many instances of browner/darker skinned women's protests against Colorism being met with apathy and criticism. To deny that simply means you haven't been paying attention, and frankly aren't qualified to participate in this discussion.
Your point is baseless because there is no way to quantify whether the criticism darker skinned women get for denouncing colorism is 'more' than when light skin women do the same. In fact it's clear to me that this woman has attracted a firestorm of criticism here, within this very thread.
What makes you think that fact would be any different if the author was dark skinned? Does the author here not have a right to express her feelings and experiences on a phenomenon she thinks is a problem? Are her claims less legitimate because she's light skinned?
What is your point here?
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Lmao don't yall make fun of Dro for being black?
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This didn't make sense at all. It shows a state of confusion in the critique.
Says, her blackness was called into question because of her features in first paragraph. By third, states that she composed a hateful tweet because she believes the receiver of an award was given such because of the worldly preference of her skin tone.
I stopped reading. -
Lack of intent means you can't shift responsibility.
@zzombie
Are you saying that if there was malicious intent (which there sometimes is) then society could be held responsible for these women's beauty issues? Intention has nothing to do with responsibility (if you're responsible for your child's safety then you can be faulted for knowingly neglecting or consciously disregarding their safety even if you never deliberately harm them) and regardless of whether or not people should be considered morally responsible for the self-esteem of other people, they are at least in part causally responsible.If you have low self-esteem then it's your ? fault.
No one can make you feel ugly or make you feel prettier than someone else
That's not true, they can. How attractive someone feels is influenced by both their own conscious attitude and preferences as well as how other people evaluate and treat them and their culture's standards of beauty.
I know objectively ugly ? that are happy married and living life to the fullest with friends
There are no objectively ugly women and whether or not someone meets up to their society's conventional standards of beauty is only one aspect in how well off they will generally feel. Just because people can endure racism and still have overall happy lives doesn't negate racism as a problem. People with the same 'disadvantages' can also have different experiences (some black people have experienced more racism than others and their perception and attitudes are different at least partly because of it).
@deserttrain10when we live in a male dominated world that puts beautiful women on a pedestal....where long hair, big butts, light colored eyes have become social currency ... its not surprising girls grow up believing that their looks largely determines their worth ... especially when they see little that suggest differently
I don't believe we live in a male dominated society. Men may dominate positions of leadership (and even that isn't due to male discrimination against women) but women have as much influence on cultural and social norms that men are pressured to live up to as men do on cultural ideals that women are expected to embody. When there really was a patriarchy (in the West) that prevented women from voting or having political power it wasn't set up for the benefit of men, it was a gender based 'division of labor' where each sex was assigned different roles and expectations that was set up for the survival of the group and not to discriminate against women for the benefit of men, men were as, if not more, disadvantaged by this system as women were.
Traditionally, *more* emphasis was placed on women being physically attractive but since the advent of birth control and advances in technology that have rendered physical strength less important in the workplace and women being more financially independent than ever, some would argue that modern women place more emphasis on men's physical attractiveness than women in the past did since it's not as crucial for men to be providers and 'success objects' anymore.
If anything I think that conventionally attractive people in general are more likely to be put on a 'pedestal'. I can't imagine most people considering it socially acceptable to criticize a woman's appearance in a way that I've been criticized by complete strangers for some of my physical flaws (and not even something like hair but the most private, personal, 'embarrassing' flaws that no one would have reason to think were 'fixable' to begin with, if I also considered them flaws). I could be wrong (I don't think it would detract from my point) but I think any man who doesn't consider himself to be an out and out ? would probably have a big problem with mocking a woman for being overweight even if he didn't have one with mocking a man for being overweight. The only appearance based insult you're really 'allowed' to throw at women is they're being too skinny but generally it seems tackier for men to criticize a woman's appearance (not her clothes but her actual body/face) than it is for men or women to criticize a man's physical appearance.than white controlled media/entertainment industry tends to depict darker skinned blks in a negative light ...
I don't think I've really noticed that, personally.Women dont come out the ? wanting to look like kim Kardashian, black chyna... willing to risk their health injecting themselves with silicone, wrapping their stomachs with faux gurdles
Most men and women would want to attract the opposite sex even if they weren't shamed for not doing so.
I can't imagine complexion (not even race, ethnicity, culture, sex or class but complexion) being an issue when it comes to friendship or social issues in general. You have light and dark skinned women in the same families.
ACTUALLY beauty IS NOT SUBJECTIVE http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080818-body-symmetry.html No matter the race or culture ugly is ugly and their are levels of beauty
But only the weak make others influence how they feel about themselves if society is not trying to make your feel bad about yourself on purpose then it's your fault for thinking you are ugly, you cannot blame society and even if there was a push to make a certain group of people feel bad about themselves it would still come down to personal feelings.
If you know people think you are ugly it's your responsibility to control your consciouness.
black people are not children so all that other ? you posted make no sense to me -
ACTUALLY beauty IS NOT SUBJECTIVE http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080818-body-symmetry.html No matter the race or culture ugly is ugly and their are levels of beauty
But only the weak make others influence how they feel about themselves if society is not trying to make your feel bad about yourself on purpose then it's your fault for thinking you are ugly, you cannot blame society and even if there was a push to make a certain group of people feel bad about themselves it would still come down to personal feelings.
If you know people think you are ugly it's your responsibility to control your consciouness.
black people are not children so all that other ? you posted make no sense to me
The fact that some traits and some people have *near* universal appeal among humans and that these traits usually correlate more or less with health and fertility (only extreme ? asymmetry correlates with poorer health, for example) doesn't negate beauty being subjective. Beauty isn't health or fertility which is relative but can be measured objectively and objectivity isn't consensus. Most humans don't find whatever traits that indicate health and fertility in centipedes to be attractive. There are almost universally preferred traits in all human cultures but different cultures have had different preferences when it comes to beauty (I've read that ? are typically considered more attractive in white American culture than ass is and the opposite is true in Brazil. Many men prefer small ? over larger ones even though larger ones should be 'objectively' more attractive- I don't know if that's the best example since larger ? don't contain more milk but maybe it correlates with fertility, some researchers argue the preference for larger ? stems from firm ? indicating youth so prehistoric men who preferred women with large, firm ? were more likely to propagate their genes because their partners were younger and more fertile whereas the men who preferred women with smaller ? were less likely to weed out the older, less fertile ones because smaller ? don't sag as much with age). If you were raised in the U.S you probably find women with leg hair unattractive although up until relatively recently in history, removing body hair was the norm in only a minority of cultures (like ancient Egypt).
I wasn't arguing that people are morally responsible for the self-esteem or psychological well-being of other people, I was pointing out that they are causally responsible *to some extent*. Humans are social animals and they cannot choose to not be affected by the opinions of other humans or the norms of the cultures and societies they live in. Shaming people for being 'weak' is a non-argument. If you don't think people should be held responsible for the psychological well-being of other people that's fine but it's inconsistent to make a distinction between deliberately trying to make people feel ugly and a willingness to make people feel ugly and again, I'm arguing for causal responsibility, not moral responsibility. Being weak is not a character flaw, in my view, a conscious lack of compassion for other people is.black people are not children so all that other ? you posted make no sense to me
if society is not trying to make your feel bad about yourself on purpose then it's your fault for thinking you are ugly
I may have misunderstood you by taking what you wrote literally. My point was that *if* you are morally responsible for the well-being of other people, a willingness to make them feel bad (without just cause) is as bad as deliberately trying to make them feel bad ; in both cases you do what you do because you don't care. You said that a 'lack of intent means you can't shift responsibility' implying that you could fault someone for deliberately trying to shame or humiliate someone else for their appearance but not if this wasn't their explicit goal (this is where the child example came in, another example could be deliberately running someone over with a car vs. not stopping when they walk across the road because you just can't be bothered or you don't want to be late).
I don't believe people owe other people compassion but I do think they should be compassionate and regard one other as mutually responsible for each other's well-being. I don't know why I should bother saying that since it's only what I think 'makes sense' and not that I care about all people but it does seem right to me.
I know I'm out here writing essays. -
We
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These
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Willie Lynch strikes again. SMH
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Peeny_Wally wrote: »Peeny_Wally wrote: »? this ? ? . She's needs to take her personal issues and not indiscriminately applying them to black women. She says she isn't a "tragic mulatto" but she sure writes like one.
Colourism is real, but this approach is counterproductive, ignorant, and dumb.
? this ? .
Why is her approach counterproductive? @Peeny_Wally
Because as I said before, it's a click-bait piece.
It has nothing to do with black women in general, it's a piece abut HER personal problems with black women. She gave it that misleading (and ignorant) title as if she was going to broach the topic and examine all the nuanced issues, look at the broadest picture possible, explore the tangled history, and provide some kind of piece worthy of discussion. Instead this dumb ? just typed out her diary.
How can I possibly take her piece seriously when she writes insanely generalised, and personal tidbits like this:
Dark or light, black women are long overdue to finally own up to our deep-rooted resentment toward one another.
Since moving to Atlanta in the millennia, I've befriended mostly white women. Why? The unvarnished truth lies somewhere between my own emotional hang-ups and the fact that most of the darker black women I've met are competitive, strident, pushy and critical of my decisions. As such, it's been easier to socialize with those women who value my friendship without stipulations and constant backtalk. Thus, my friendships with white women are neat, unfettered and based solely on our likes and dislikes.
When will we replace our hip-swerving, eye-rolling ? with a genuine sisterhood that's unwavering in its devotion? Sadly, I fear we're responsible for reigniting pre-civil war valuations by competing against one another, taking over where Jim Crow laws left off
but black women have disappointed me in far larger numbers than white women.
My older sister, who is darker than me (we have different fathers) has always been my mother's beloved daughter. To grow up in the shadow of a sister who is forever deemed smarter, more accomplished, prettier and more popular has certainly instilled prejudices that I'm ashamed to own, and have been slow to acknowledge.
The article is littered with ? like that. Now tell me, how do any of these points, relate to a problem with black women in general? She even states (numerously) in the piece that this could all be down to her issues, and that's why this article is horseshit: She's taken a great deal of her personal issues and thrown them onto black women.
? her. ? her light-skin feelings. ? her inability to make black female friends. The articles reads like a cut scene from Oprah's "Light Girls", on some "oh woe is me, all these dark ? hate me and my light eyes" ? .
Now if I want to see something address colourism, I'll watch School Daze.
You're unbelievably emotional about this, but I see your point. She could have phrased the title of the piece better...make it a bit more personal to reflect the content of what she wrote. I agree as well that her general points may not be wise in this case...as there are obviously black women in the world who don't give a ? about lightskinned-vs-darkskinned.
I don't know that it makes her entire piece counter-productive to solving the issue though. I would assume that she wished to shed more light on it, which like it or not, she did successfully. -
Lack of intent means you can't shift responsibility.
@zzombie
Are you saying that if there was malicious intent (which there sometimes is) then society could be held responsible for these women's beauty issues? Intention has nothing to do with responsibility (if you're responsible for your child's safety then you can be faulted for knowingly neglecting or consciously disregarding their safety even if you never deliberately harm them) and regardless of whether or not people should be considered morally responsible for the self-esteem of other people, they are at least in part causally responsible.If you have low self-esteem then it's your ? fault.
No one can make you feel ugly or make you feel prettier than someone else
That's not true, they can. How attractive someone feels is influenced by both their own conscious attitude and preferences as well as how other people evaluate and treat them and their culture's standards of beauty.I know objectively ugly ? that are happy married and living life to the fullest with friends
There are no objectively ugly women and whether or not someone meets up to their society's conventional standards of beauty is only one aspect in how well off they will generally feel. Just because people can endure racism and still have overall happy lives doesn't negate racism as a problem. People with the same 'disadvantages' can also have different experiences (some black people have experienced more racism than others and their perception and attitudes are different at least partly because of it).
@deserttrain10when we live in a male dominated world that puts beautiful women on a pedestal....where long hair, big butts, light colored eyes have become social currency ... its not surprising girls grow up believing that their looks largely determines their worth ... especially when they see little that suggest differently
I don't believe we live in a male dominated society. Men may dominate positions of leadership (and even that isn't due to male discrimination against women) but women have as much influence on cultural and social norms that men are pressured to live up to as men do on cultural ideals that women are expected to embody. When there really was a patriarchy (in the West) that prevented women from voting or having political power it wasn't set up for the benefit of men, it was a gender based 'division of labor' where each sex was assigned different roles and expectations that was set up for the survival of the group and not to discriminate against women for the benefit of men, men were as, if not more, disadvantaged by this system as women were.
Traditionally, *more* emphasis was placed on women being physically attractive but since the advent of birth control and advances in technology that have rendered physical strength less important in the workplace and women being more financially independent than ever, some would argue that modern women place more emphasis on men's physical attractiveness than women in the past did since it's not as crucial for men to be providers and 'success objects' anymore.
If anything I think that conventionally attractive people in general are more likely to be put on a 'pedestal'. I can't imagine most people considering it socially acceptable to criticize a woman's appearance in a way that I've been criticized by complete strangers for some of my physical flaws (and not even something like hair but the most private, personal, 'embarrassing' flaws that no one would have reason to think were 'fixable' to begin with, if I also considered them flaws). I could be wrong (I don't think it would detract from my point) but I think any man who doesn't consider himself to be an out and out ? would probably have a big problem with mocking a woman for being overweight even if he didn't have one with mocking a man for being overweight. The only appearance based insult you're really 'allowed' to throw at women is they're being too skinny but generally it seems tackier for men to criticize a woman's appearance (not her clothes but her actual body/face) than it is for men or women to criticize a man's physical appearance.than white controlled media/entertainment industry tends to depict darker skinned blks in a negative light ...
I don't think I've really noticed that, personally.Women dont come out the ? wanting to look like kim Kardashian, black chyna... willing to risk their health injecting themselves with silicone, wrapping their stomachs with faux gurdles
Most men and women would want to attract the opposite sex even if they weren't shamed for not doing so.
I can't imagine complexion (not even race, ethnicity, culture, sex or class but complexion) being an issue when it comes to friendship or social issues in general. You have light and dark skinned women in the same families.
I be on some explaining in detail ? , but that was long as ? . -
We'll have to agree to disagree, Wally. I don't think it's possible to see the impact of an article through reading the comment section. It's mostly a forum populated by over-emotional, ignorant idiots.
Click-bait piece? The content was way too personal to even approach click-bait. Perhaps you're looking for "misleading"?
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This just like many other issues women have. Darker women hating on lighter, lighter hating on darker, skinny hating on fat, fat hating on skinny, singles hating on couples, broke hating on richer, and etc. Uglier hating on prettier.
Women are just some jealous creatures.
Men are more subtle with it, but that's another thread. -
Peeny_Wally wrote: »Peeny_Wally wrote: »Peeny_Wally wrote: »? this ? ? . She's needs to take her personal issues and not indiscriminately applying them to black women. She says she isn't a "tragic mulatto" but she sure writes like one.
Colourism is real, but this approach is counterproductive, ignorant, and dumb.
? this ? .
Why is her approach counterproductive? @Peeny_Wally
Because as I said before, it's a click-bait piece.
It has nothing to do with black women in general, it's a piece abut HER personal problems with black women. She gave it that misleading (and ignorant) title as if she was going to broach the topic and examine all the nuanced issues, look at the broadest picture possible, explore the tangled history, and provide some kind of piece worthy of discussion. Instead this dumb ? just typed out her diary.
How can I possibly take her piece seriously when she writes insanely generalised, and personal tidbits like this:
Dark or light, black women are long overdue to finally own up to our deep-rooted resentment toward one another.
Since moving to Atlanta in the millennia, I've befriended mostly white women. Why? The unvarnished truth lies somewhere between my own emotional hang-ups and the fact that most of the darker black women I've met are competitive, strident, pushy and critical of my decisions. As such, it's been easier to socialize with those women who value my friendship without stipulations and constant backtalk. Thus, my friendships with white women are neat, unfettered and based solely on our likes and dislikes.
When will we replace our hip-swerving, eye-rolling ? with a genuine sisterhood that's unwavering in its devotion? Sadly, I fear we're responsible for reigniting pre-civil war valuations by competing against one another, taking over where Jim Crow laws left off
but black women have disappointed me in far larger numbers than white women.
My older sister, who is darker than me (we have different fathers) has always been my mother's beloved daughter. To grow up in the shadow of a sister who is forever deemed smarter, more accomplished, prettier and more popular has certainly instilled prejudices that I'm ashamed to own, and have been slow to acknowledge.
The article is littered with ? like that. Now tell me, how do any of these points, relate to a problem with black women in general? She even states (numerously) in the piece that this could all be down to her issues, and that's why this article is horseshit: She's taken a great deal of her personal issues and thrown them onto black women.
? her. ? her light-skin feelings. ? her inability to make black female friends. The articles reads like a cut scene from Oprah's "Light Girls", on some "oh woe is me, all these dark ? hate me and my light eyes" ? .
Now if I want to see something address colourism, I'll watch School Daze.
You're unbelievably emotional about this, but I see your point. She could have phrased the title of the piece better...make it a bit more personal to reflect the content of what she wrote. I agree as well that her general points may not be wise in this case...as there are obviously black women in the world who don't give a ? about lightskinned-vs-darkskinned.
I don't know that it makes her entire piece counter-productive to solving the issue though. I would assume that she wished to shed more light on it, which like it or not, she did successfully.
But she didn't "shed more light on it". Why? Just read the comments on the Huffing Post, the IC, and anywhere it's posted.
She alleges that she wants people to look at the "problems with black women", but she's started no real dialogue on these "problems"; this thread is primary a smash or pass thread, the comments on the Huffington Post primarily echo mine, and so on. Even we're not discussing the "problem with black women", rather the problems with the article lol.
Most comments are not along the lines of "well damn, the piece has me thinking...maybe I need to look at myself and my friendships with black women and where these issues might stem from" and seeing as that was her point (located somewhere in all that waffle), then what was the point of her article?
Her diary entry was a click-bait piece, nothing more, nothing less.
@ the bolded: you gotdamn right! Given the chance I'm beatin out her back with a comb in my hand. -
men do the same ? , they hate on eachother for being fat, skinny, dark, pale, glasses etc..
but then after middle/high school they stop mostly
you know why men stop and women not? because if men cross other mens lines they get beat up.
and it's not socially acceptable to beat the bishes up
