Secular accounts & historical evidence on the existance of jesus
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DoUwant2go2Heaven
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Maybe this will help those that refuse acknowledge truth.
THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH
THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH
- Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian: Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar's death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero's death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96. In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome. See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." (The misspelling of Christ as "Christus" was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived. It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.
- Suetonius: Roman historian and court official during the reign of the Emperor Hadrian. Suetonius wrote in his Life of Claudius: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." (Life of Claudius 25.4). Chrestus is a misspelling of Christus; the spelling probably assumes that the spelling of Jesus' title "Christos" was the same as ate ChiRho symbol which was also a literary device which indicated a quote worthy of note = the 'chrestus" symbol. Claudius' expulsion of the Christians form Rome is mentioned in Acts 18:2. This event took place in 49AD. In his work Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius also wrote: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Assuming Jesus was crucified in the early thirties, Suetonius places Christians in the Roman capital less than 20 years later and he reports that they were suffering for their faith and dying for their conviction that Jesus had really lived, died and that He had risen from the dead!
- Pliny the Younger: Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the Christians. He recounts that he had been killing Christian men, women, and children. He is concerned that so many have chosen death over simply bowing down to a statue of the emperor or being made to "curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." (Epistles X, 96)
- Tallus: Tallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers like the Christian, Julius Africanus, who wrote around AD221. He quotes Tallus' comments about the darkness that enveloped the land during the late afaternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross. Julius wrote: Tallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun'unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1 The importance of Tallus' comments is that the reference shows that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell across the earth during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians.
- Phlegon: Julius Africanus also quoted another secular scholar whose works are now lost. Phlegon wrote a history called Chronicles. Phlegon also comments on the darkness at the time of Christ's crucifixion: "During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
(The 3rd century Christian apologist Origen also references Phlegon's record of this event in his work Celsum, 2.14,33,59 as does the 6th century writer Philopon (De.opif.mund. II, 21. - Mara Bar-Serapion: Syrian stoic philosopher who wrote a letter from prison to his son circa 70AD. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.
- Josephus ben Mattathias (also known as Flavius Josephus): 37-100AD, Jewish priest, general and historian. He wrote two great works of Jewish history: The Jewish War, written in the early 70's and Jewish Antiquities, which was finished about AD94. In his work, Jewish Antiquities, there is a passage that has created heated debate among scholars for many decades: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, XVIII, 33
- Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day'the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account..." The Death of Peregrine, 11-13
- The Babylonian Talmud: "It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover." Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9 (Another version of this text reads: "Yeshu the Nazarene." Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus'in English this name is also translated "Joshua." The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah. "Hanged" is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39 and Galatians 3:13
No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.
Otto Betz
Otto Betz
Comments
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These are good references, but it doesn't always guarantee that someone will believe in Jesus. Nowadays, people want to go the way of Thomas and actually "touch" Jesus. People want to come to their own assumptions about the evidence than being told what to believe about the evidence.
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alissowack wrote: »These are good references, but it doesn't always guarantee that someone will believe in Jesus. Nowadays, people want to go the way of Thomas and actually "touch" Jesus. People want to come to their own assumptions about the evidence than being told what to believe about the evidence.
I know a man named Jesus in Nazarath was alive, I just dont see what made him the son of ? , IMO he was a prophet, which doesnt mean he knew ? just that he claimed to. The original testament spoke of the whole ? sending his son ish and they made the story into Jesus Christ to fit the prophecy. There is historical evidence to say a Jesus did exist, outside of the bible though there is no proof he was some magical being or ? 's son. If ? spoke to Moses, Im sure Moses would have let people know not to ? Jesus because he was the all holy.. -
people want jesus to return a third time before they believe
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The prisoner that was let free in the place of Jesus name was also named Jesus. What I find interesting is that his name was Jesus "bar-Abbas" which in Aramic just so happens to mean "Son of the Father". Could there be some confusion on the part of who Jesus actually was? Could these stories of Jesus be greatly exaggerated? Jesus always supposedly referred to ? as the "father", this guy Barrabbas just so happen to be named that. Jesus "son of the father". Do you find that interesting? Could there be some confusion when it comes to the translation? Some mythology mixed in with some true historic events?
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Lol @ Ether, it doesnt say Jesus' name in the bible so to them none of those names matter, the only one who matters is the one you didnt mention.... Jesus of bullshitonia
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ThaChozenWun wrote: »I know a man named Jesus in Nazarath was alive, I just dont see what made him the son of ? , IMO he was a prophet, which doesnt mean he knew ? just that he claimed to. The original testament spoke of the whole ? sending his son ish and they made the story into Jesus Christ to fit the prophecy. There is historical evidence to say a Jesus did exist, outside of the bible though there is no proof he was some magical being or ? 's son. If ? spoke to Moses, Im sure Moses would have let people know not to ? Jesus because he was the all holy..
That was the point of my response. There is historical evidence for Jesus, but it doesn't make a person surrender their lives to this person. People are looking for something more than that. However, I think this "show me" viewpoint does take away from why people believe in Jesus. The focus is on the miraculous though the Bible does say Jesus done the miraculous. If people believe in Jesus because he was just a miracle worker, a teacher, or a prophet then there are many people that can take his place. -
I can feel him... his love and presence has been more dominant in my life than any male or anything period. How do you total your car... walk away unharmed, see miracles happen from it and have it change your life stricly for the positive?How does sickness, weakness and feeling alone turn into the better if you just let him in. So glad I'm not so stubborn like I once was.. oh man ? is great and his works surpass anything in this life.
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I can feel him... his love and presence has been more dominant in my life than any male or anything period. How do you total your car... walk away unharmed, see miracles happen from it and have it change your life stricly for the positive?How does sickness, weakness and feeling alone turn into the better if you just let him in. So glad I'm not so stubborn like I once was.. oh man ? is great and his works surpass anything in this life.
I don't want to discourage you for I believe ? can do the miraculous, but if all we want from ? is a "feel good" experience, then there is a lot of reasons to not believe in Him. ? is not trying to make bad people good or make people feel something. He is making dead (in spirit) people live. -
Let's get that hot tub time machine and end this nonsense for good.
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This thread is pretty pointless. Most people who doubt Jesus, don't doubt that a man by that name existed. They doubt his divinity and many of the things attributed to him.
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »This thread is pretty pointless. Most people who doubt Jesus, don't doubt that a man by that name existed. They doubt his divinity and many of the things attributed to him.
During that time period there were about 20 different Jesus' mentioned through ancient texts in the same area as Jesus Christ would have been. There are Jesus' that have performed the miricals he has, so yea your right alot of us dont doubt Jesus existed, we just dont believe he was a magician.
As for me I think Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth w.e you want to call him was also real and the man they based it on, however I believe he was a con man who posed as a false prophet. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »During that time period there were about 20 different Jesus' mentioned through ancient texts in the same area as Jesus Christ would have been. There are Jesus' that have performed the miricals he has, so yea your right alot of us dont doubt Jesus existed, we just dont believe he was a magician.
As for me I think Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth w.e you want to call him was also real and the man they based it on, however I believe he was a con man who posed as a false prophet.
And you are of course just pulling that belief out of your ass to denigrate a religious figure. Even if you don't believe he's devine, there is no reason to accuse him of being a conman. If anything he was likely more like a Ghandi or MLK type figure, and over tiime was turned it to something else. Most historical accounts of him as a man came about years after his death, it's not unbelievable that hyperbole was added in before those things were put to paper. Anyways, as I've said before, you don't need to be a Christian to see the value in Christ's teachings. If a conman or false prophet can deliver the kind of message that he did, then we need more conmen and false prophets in the world. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »And you are of course just pulling that belief out of your ass to denigrate a religious figure. Even if you don't believe he's devine, there is no reason to accuse him of being a conman. If anything he was likely more like a Ghandi or MLK type figure, and over tiime was turned it to something else. Most historical accounts of him as a man came about years after his death, it's not unbelievable that hyperbole was added in before those things were put to paper. Anyways, as I've said before, you don't need to be a Christian to see the value in Christ's teachings. If a conman or false prophet can deliver the kind of message that he did, then we need more conmen and false prophets in the world.
Did he not con people into thinkin he was more? Yes he did thats a con-man. I never said he wasnt a great human being but people imo were tricked into thinking he was divine which i dont believe. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Did he not con people into thinkin he was more? Yes he did thats a con-man. I never said he wasnt a great human being but people imo were tricked into thinking he was divine which i dont believe.
Where did he say this? -
Where did he say this?
He said he wasnt a con man i explained why i thought he was a con man, can you not put 2 and 2 together? -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »He said he wasnt a con man i explained why i thought he was a con man, can you not put 2 and 2 together?
How did he con people into thinking he was more? -
100 years from now ? will be going to the church of tupac and will still be awaiting his return,...
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Lol at this thread. If you believe then great, if you don't great. Why cant people be fine with others not believing?
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ThaChozenWun wrote: »Did he not con people into thinkin he was more? Yes he did thats a con-man. I never said he wasnt a great human being but people imo were tricked into thinking he was divine which i dont believe.
What proof do you have of him doing anything like that? Even if you look at the Bible, the books about Jesus aren't examples of him writing something to make people believe he's devine. They are accounts of people who witnessed Jesus' actions. It's a common thing for people to exaggerate occurences after the fact when telling a story. That doesn't reflect on the subject of the story. It's a reflection on the storyteller.
