To those who believe in a kind and merciful ? ....why is the world so hostile to life?
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kingblaze84 wrote: »
I'm used to it.
But after a while the intellectual dishonesty
And backpedaling gets predictable
And uninteresting.
Lies. I dodged nothing I gave you an answer for all your questions even the ones with a faulty premise. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »his omnibenevolence is not irrelevant to the argument it is central to everything in creation and to this thread, have you looked at the thread title???
This argument >>>And if ? is omniscient,
He knew every detail of every event and every thing in the universe
Before he created it. If ? is omnipotent,
He had the ability to change anything to his liking before
He created the universe.
That means, if ? created the universe, he created
A universe that he wanted to create. That means that everything that
Ever happened is ? 's will and no one else's.
? wanted to create a universe with multiple freewill creatures therefore he allows his universe to change and allows us to reject him
if you say so
the bible says so
That's very convincing.
Well we are talking about the bible ? ??? So what the bible says about ? is central to the discussion
What about all the stuff that was not included in the Bible, like Yahweh having a goddess as a wife, Asherah? And her being worshipped as a goddess for a long time, hundreds of years? She was written out of the Bible by Italian, Greek and British Christians with an agenda, and several Jews did the same for the Old Testament. The Bible leaves out a lot of scrolls and writings that indicate the Bible ? was worshipped among OTHER gods for a very long time, until one cult overcame the other ones, likely through violence.
http://wifeofyahweh.com/
Most specifically, the “Asherah cult thus came to be regarded as much a feature of popular religion in ancient Israel and Judah as the worship of Yahweh.” Biblical Archaeology Review*
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kingblaze84 wrote: »
I'm used to it.
But after a while the intellectual dishonesty
And backpedaling gets predictable
And uninteresting.
Their religion would possibly gain credibility if another "prophet" could make some accurate predictions about something in the future. But instead, all we get are Christian preachers who over and over again get the dates wrong on when Jesus will come back to "change" things aka burn most of humanity alive. Think of all the times a random pastor says the world will end on this or that date, and instead nothing happens.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/end-of-world-7-october-ebible-fellowship
Christian group predicts the world will be 'annihilated' on Wednesday
While our planet may have survived September’s “blood moon”, it will be permanently destroyed on Wednesday, 7 October, a Christian organization has warned. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »Their religion would possibly gain credibility if another "prophet" could make some accurate predictions about something in the future. But instead, all we get are Christian preachers who over and over again get the dates wrong on when Jesus will come back to "change" things aka burn most of humanity alive.
Their religion would gain credibility
If any of its tenets made sense. In order
For that to happen, it would have to be
Completely revamped.
Also, since you brought it up,
Notice how, regardless of the time period,
Biblical prophecies are always interpreted
To fit into whatever point in history
The interpreter happens to live in. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »Their religion would possibly gain credibility if another "prophet" could make some accurate predictions about something in the future. But instead, all we get are Christian preachers who over and over again get the dates wrong on when Jesus will come back to "change" things aka burn most of humanity alive.
Their religion would gain credibility
If any of its tenets made sense. In order
For that to happen, it would have to be
Completely revamped.
Also, since you brought it up,
Notice how, regardless of the time period,
Biblical prophecies are always interpreted
To fit into whatever point in history
The interpreter happens to live in.
The tenets making sense would help too. For something supposedly "divinely inspired", there are a lot of holes in the story.
And that's why some of these preachers have to make stuff up as far as the 2nd coming. The year 1000 and even the year 500 was supposed to bring Jesus back. A former soldier named David Shayler (whose now a transvestite) does claim to be Jesus Christ reincarnated, and even claims to have proof on Youtube. It didn't convince me, but maybe he'll convert us all someday.
https://youtu.be/yT8ldt7MqEA
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Another message from the man who claims to be Jesus Christ reborn, and he's on a mission to prove himself to the world.....here he is preaching in front of a church. He claims the angel Gabriel revealed that he was the Lord in 2007. David Shayler, aka Yeshua, also claims vaccinations are bad for children, which is interesting.
The Messiah reborn at Guildford Cathedral (Part One)
https://youtu.be/xqO2wVJ2Qr0
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David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
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alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man. -
alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing. -
alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school.
No...if Jesus is the standard in which to measure every other person who claims to be the Messiah. David...and the other false messiahs...are not stirring up the kind of controversies Jesus dealt with in his day. Jesus said things that have brought him praise and left people wanting to ? him all at the same time. David doesn't have Pharisees watching his every move hoping he would slip up.
I never really given thought to a Jesus "look-a-like" appearing before others because I believe the issue isn't whether he merely died and rose again. It's whether he died and rose again...to save mankind from sin. If it wasn't for that, then his death and resurrection...even if proven to be a real occurrence...would be meaningless. -
alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school.
No...if Jesus is the standard in which to measure every other person who claims to be the Messiah. David...and the other false messiahs...are not stirring up the kind of controversies Jesus dealt with in his day. Jesus said things that have brought him praise and left people wanting to ? him all at the same time. David doesn't have Pharisees watching his every move hoping he would slip up.
I never really given thought to a Jesus "look-a-like" appearing before others because I believe the issue isn't whether he merely died and rose again. It's whether he died and rose again...to save mankind from sin. If it wasn't for that, then his death and resurrection...even if proven to be a real occurrence...would be meaningless.
I admit David Shayler isn't on the radar of most religious leaders, but that's mostly because he lives in Britain, a nation where most people aren't religious. If he lived in Iran or Saudi Arabia, he would have been stoned or hung to death for blasphemy. Jesus did bring heat on himself by calling himself the messiah during his time but ironically couldn't even save himself from his persecutors. How can a messiah, a so called ? , fail to protect himself from a bunch of humans? He could have made a decent case for him being a ? if he fought back and didn't say the words, "? why have you forsaken me". Why did a ? comment on another ? forsaking him.....?
As far as Jesus saving us from "sin", ummmmm, not sure if that really ever happened. People still suffer from the consequences of original sin right? So in reality, Jesus didn't really save anyone from sin, especially if Jesus couldn't even save himself (and his other followers). People still "sin" too. Now if the Zika virus was not in existence, along with other horrible parasites and viruses, then maybe Jesus dying for us would have meant something, beyond words and catch phrases.
If David Shayler doesn't impress you, you might want to look up James Jim Jones Warren, he had alot of enemies for his time and considered himself The Messiah too.
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Inri Cristo of Brazil also claims to be Jesus/The Messiah reborn and he has a lot of enemies and followers too, just like the other guy who claimed to be Messiah 2000 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inri_Cristo -
kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school.
No...if Jesus is the standard in which to measure every other person who claims to be the Messiah. David...and the other false messiahs...are not stirring up the kind of controversies Jesus dealt with in his day. Jesus said things that have brought him praise and left people wanting to ? him all at the same time. David doesn't have Pharisees watching his every move hoping he would slip up.
I never really given thought to a Jesus "look-a-like" appearing before others because I believe the issue isn't whether he merely died and rose again. It's whether he died and rose again...to save mankind from sin. If it wasn't for that, then his death and resurrection...even if proven to be a real occurrence...would be meaningless.
I admit David Shayler isn't on the radar of most religious leaders, but that's mostly because he lives in Britain, a nation where most people aren't religious. If he lived in Iran or Saudi Arabia, he would have been stoned or hung to death for blasphemy. Jesus did bring heat on himself by calling himself the messiah during his time but ironically couldn't even save himself from his persecutors. How can a messiah, a so called ? , fail to protect himself from a bunch of humans? He could have made a decent case for him being a ? if he fought back and didn't say the words, "? why have you forsaken me". Why did a ? comment on another ? forsaking him.....?
As far as Jesus saving us from "sin", ummmmm, not sure if that really ever happened. People still suffer from the consequences of original sin right? So in reality, Jesus didn't really save anyone from sin, especially if Jesus couldn't even save himself (and his other followers). People still "sin" too. Now if the Zika virus was not in existence, along with other horrible parasites and viruses, then maybe Jesus dying for us would have meant something, beyond words and catch phrases.
If David Shayler doesn't impress you, you might want to look up James Jim Jones Warren, he had alot of enemies for his time and considered himself The Messiah too.
Matthew 27:40
and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of ? !"
You're not the only one who felt that way. And far as sin goes...what Jesus saved us from has spiritual implications. Just wanting to be healed of sickness and ailments of the body isn't going to cure the terminal illness of the soul. If Jesus didn't die and rise so that one day my soul will be free from sin, then it doesn't matter if evidence just shows up for all to see.
I'm not just looking for false messiahs that have "enemies". I'm more or less saying this: someone who insist on calling themselves the messiah should bring about a lot of attention. -
alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school.
No...if Jesus is the standard in which to measure every other person who claims to be the Messiah. David...and the other false messiahs...are not stirring up the kind of controversies Jesus dealt with in his day. Jesus said things that have brought him praise and left people wanting to ? him all at the same time. David doesn't have Pharisees watching his every move hoping he would slip up.
I never really given thought to a Jesus "look-a-like" appearing before others because I believe the issue isn't whether he merely died and rose again. It's whether he died and rose again...to save mankind from sin. If it wasn't for that, then his death and resurrection...even if proven to be a real occurrence...would be meaningless.
I admit David Shayler isn't on the radar of most religious leaders, but that's mostly because he lives in Britain, a nation where most people aren't religious. If he lived in Iran or Saudi Arabia, he would have been stoned or hung to death for blasphemy. Jesus did bring heat on himself by calling himself the messiah during his time but ironically couldn't even save himself from his persecutors. How can a messiah, a so called ? , fail to protect himself from a bunch of humans? He could have made a decent case for him being a ? if he fought back and didn't say the words, "? why have you forsaken me". Why did a ? comment on another ? forsaking him.....?
As far as Jesus saving us from "sin", ummmmm, not sure if that really ever happened. People still suffer from the consequences of original sin right? So in reality, Jesus didn't really save anyone from sin, especially if Jesus couldn't even save himself (and his other followers). People still "sin" too. Now if the Zika virus was not in existence, along with other horrible parasites and viruses, then maybe Jesus dying for us would have meant something, beyond words and catch phrases.
If David Shayler doesn't impress you, you might want to look up James Jim Jones Warren, he had alot of enemies for his time and considered himself The Messiah too.
Matthew 27:40
and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of ? !"
You're not the only one who felt that way. And far as sin goes...what Jesus saved us from has spiritual implications. Just wanting to be healed of sickness and ailments of the body isn't going to cure the terminal illness of the soul. If Jesus didn't die and rise so that one day my soul will be free from sin, then it doesn't matter if evidence just shows up for all to see.
I'm not just looking for false messiahs that have "enemies". I'm more or less saying this: someone who insist on calling themselves the messiah should bring about a lot of attention.
Well I must say, your faith in him is pretty strong, and I respect that. I know the effect religion has on many people and it's comforting to many to believe in Jesus or whoever is righteous in one's eyes. I guess some people, such as myself, need more evidence to take a doctrine or belief seriously, but I made this thread to understand how and why people can accept a belief in a ? that is "powerful" and at the same time allows those ailments and problems in the physical world.
The spiritual world or after life in your eyes is more important then the physical world, and while that possibly can be true, it still seems weird that a ? that "died" for our sins allows nature to develop more and more ways to make life for so many humans and animals, especially children, so cruel and horrible. And I don't think you ever said how people as a whole (100% of us) can ever be spiritually "pure". I don't think it's in human nature to be pure of anything. -
Also @alissowack
What would it take for a Jesus reborn guy to prove to you that he's the real deal? You may be rejecting your own savior for all we know, there are at least ten of them on Youtube as we speak. Some with thousands of followers, maybe more. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »alissowack wrote: »David Shayler is definitely not the Messiah. He doesn't "speak" as one who transcends this world...and I don't mean that some sparks needed to be flying when he said something. I'm mean...he was not The Word. He didn't identify himself...through his words...that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
You've opened up a HUGE can of worms here.....are you sure you want to take the bait? I'm giving you a chance to back out.
I will accept. I saw the second vid to come to my first conclusion. Just in case I missed something...I saw the first and it confirmed my stance. He said, "don't follow me...follow the way". He's is only interested in teaching the way...not personifying it. Just about anybody can expose the corruptions of government. He's done nothing to expose the heart of man.
How would he expose the heart of man though, by criticizing things like abortion, pornography or sex outside marriage? Jesus didn't even criticize slavery.
And out of curiosity, why should David Shayler "personify" the way when Jesus didn't really personify it either? It's not like Jesus ever became an undefeated general in battle and convinced the entire world the religion of Yahweh is best. That's what the Biblical messiah was supposed to do.
At the heart of all of the wrongs done in life is self-centeredness; it's my way at the expense of compromising yours. He does nothing to point that out.
There is a saying that is a rarity these days...a man is only as good as his word. It is the belief that Jesus was good because his word was good. When Jesus said something in the Bible, his listeners knew he stood by them whether they thought he was telling the truth or not. It put people in a position to have to either accept him or reject him...which is not what this guy is doing.
Okay, but there are at least ten other people right now, probably more than that, who claim to be Jesus Christ or the messiah reborn. So doesn't that bring up the possibility that Jesus was just another David Shayler, who says nice things but really wasn't the "messiah" OT prophecies spoke about? David Shayler has spoken on other flaws in human nature by the way .
Some people have theorized maybe a Jesus look alike came to Peter and the others who saw Jesus after he died. Just wondering if those possibilities ever crossed by you, because they did for me when I realized how many "Christs" or messiahs in history have been out there. It's a huge reason I started questioning my former religion in Catholic school.
No...if Jesus is the standard in which to measure every other person who claims to be the Messiah. David...and the other false messiahs...are not stirring up the kind of controversies Jesus dealt with in his day. Jesus said things that have brought him praise and left people wanting to ? him all at the same time. David doesn't have Pharisees watching his every move hoping he would slip up.
I never really given thought to a Jesus "look-a-like" appearing before others because I believe the issue isn't whether he merely died and rose again. It's whether he died and rose again...to save mankind from sin. If it wasn't for that, then his death and resurrection...even if proven to be a real occurrence...would be meaningless.
I admit David Shayler isn't on the radar of most religious leaders, but that's mostly because he lives in Britain, a nation where most people aren't religious. If he lived in Iran or Saudi Arabia, he would have been stoned or hung to death for blasphemy. Jesus did bring heat on himself by calling himself the messiah during his time but ironically couldn't even save himself from his persecutors. How can a messiah, a so called ? , fail to protect himself from a bunch of humans? He could have made a decent case for him being a ? if he fought back and didn't say the words, "? why have you forsaken me". Why did a ? comment on another ? forsaking him.....?
As far as Jesus saving us from "sin", ummmmm, not sure if that really ever happened. People still suffer from the consequences of original sin right? So in reality, Jesus didn't really save anyone from sin, especially if Jesus couldn't even save himself (and his other followers). People still "sin" too. Now if the Zika virus was not in existence, along with other horrible parasites and viruses, then maybe Jesus dying for us would have meant something, beyond words and catch phrases.
If David Shayler doesn't impress you, you might want to look up James Jim Jones Warren, he had alot of enemies for his time and considered himself The Messiah too.
Matthew 27:40
and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of ? !"
You're not the only one who felt that way. And far as sin goes...what Jesus saved us from has spiritual implications. Just wanting to be healed of sickness and ailments of the body isn't going to cure the terminal illness of the soul. If Jesus didn't die and rise so that one day my soul will be free from sin, then it doesn't matter if evidence just shows up for all to see.
I'm not just looking for false messiahs that have "enemies". I'm more or less saying this: someone who insist on calling themselves the messiah should bring about a lot of attention.
Well I must say, your faith in him is pretty strong, and I respect that. I know the effect religion has on many people and it's comforting to many to believe in Jesus or whoever is righteous in one's eyes. I guess some people, such as myself, need more evidence to take a doctrine or belief seriously, but I made this thread to understand how and why people can accept a belief in a ? that is "powerful" and at the same time allows those ailments and problems in the physical world.
The spiritual world or after life in your eyes is more important then the physical world, and while that possibly can be true, it still seems weird that a ? that "died" for our sins allows nature to develop more and more ways to make life for so many humans and animals, especially children, so cruel and horrible. And I don't think you ever said how people as a whole (100% of us) can ever be spiritually "pure". I don't think it's in human nature to be pure of anything.
Though there can be a comfort, feeling good is not the reason anybody should follow Christ. People are Christian because of the claims he made. If anything, for his sake, we give up our comforts. We run the risk of being seen as outcast by the claims he made. We are called to spread the message when some of us don't have anything that makes our lives credible to even be listened to. You probably heard of people becoming Christian and have lived scandalous and hypocritical lives. They already have strikes against them before they can even open their mouths. Some of us just don't know how to respond when people reject the message and their lives are much better than ours whether well behaved, more intelligent or financially stable.
I heard this somewhere and I don't know if I am phrasing it right...if there is only one Messiah, then why all of the pretenders? Jesus was a man of the Bible. Anybody who claims they are the messiah must mirror everything about what the Bible says; not just prove they can walk on water or heal the sick. If they are not true to Bible, then they are not genuine. -
@alissowack
Whoever says they are the messiah must mirror EVERYTHING the Bible says....? Uh-oh......
So after all these years, the Biblical messiah never came. Even Christians acknowledge Jesus will eventually fulfill "all" the prophecies but since he hasn't so far, it makes it impossible to see who the imposters are because all of these messiahs have no proof of being one.
I also find it a little strange that the first resurrection stories of Jesus rising from the dead didn't appear until about 50 years after Jesus died. And how do you explain all the other resurrection stories throughout history? Why should I take Jesus seriously but not take Horus seriously? Or Krishna, who also was resurrected from the dead? Jesus is not really unique compared to the gods who came before him, and after him. Nothing about him stands out compared to other gods. -
@kingblaze84
But wouldn't that be a fair standard to those who claim to be the Messiah...to hold them to the very book that speaks about him? The Old Testament scholars did though they were still clueless to who he was in his time. I'm not speaking of having the exact scenarios like going out to a fishing dock to find disciples. I'm meaning...saying things he would have said. I will say that none of the false messiahs will be able to do that. As much as people hold us normal Christians to the fire about what the Bible says, they shouldn't be the exception to the rule.
I've already said in previous posts that the issue isn't about whether Jesus died and rose again...it is "why" he died and rose again. If Jesus died and rose again just to show that he has the ability do it, then as you said there are others who did the same. Lazarus of the Bible died and rose again before Jesus did.
I don't particularly like how we Christians place so much stock on Christ's Return or the Rapture that it is the "comeback" response when someone rejects the message. It's not that I don't believe he isn't coming back. I just don't believe that is why people should believe in him. But with that said, I hope people are made aware of the times we're in.
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alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
But wouldn't that be a fair standard to those who claim to be the Messiah...to hold them to the very book that speaks about him? The Old Testament scholars did though they were still clueless to who he was in his time. I'm not speaking of having the exact scenarios like going out to a fishing dock to find disciples. I'm meaning...saying things he would have said. I will say that none of the false messiahs will be able to do that. As much as people hold us normal Christians to the fire about what the Bible says, they shouldn't be the exception to the rule.
I've already said in previous posts that the issue isn't about whether Jesus died and rose again...it is "why" he died and rose again. If Jesus died and rose again just to show that he has the ability do it, then as you said there are others who did the same. Lazarus of the Bible died and rose again before Jesus did.
I don't particularly like how we Christians place so much stock on Christ's Return or the Rapture that it is the "comeback" response when someone rejects the message. It's not that I don't believe he isn't coming back. I just don't believe that is why people should believe in him. But with that said, I hope people are made aware of the times we're in.
There are several ironies in this post but the biggest irony is that Jesus is completely unable to act in the way the OT prophecies said he would act. You say the Bible is important to pointing out the imposters, but Jesus is one of those imposters by your very definition because he is either unable or unwilling to fulfill the prophecies that would PROVE Jesus is indeed the messiah.
On that note, WHY should people believe in a so called ? that can't even live up to the expectations of its own holy book? Doesn't that seem odd and weird as hell? One minute Jesus will fulfill everything in his followers' lifetime, 2,000 years later, he still is unable to do anything. It makes Jesus seem impotent and powerless, just as the Jews 2000 plus years ago said he was. And people are extremely aware of the times we live in, in the age of Youtube and Twitter, Jesus has zero excuse to not show himself by now. Notice during this whole time, you have been unable to prove he is a real messiah. The Buddha said nice and kind words too, why should a random Chinese guy out there follow Jesus and not The Buddha?
Why should a random atheist or secular person follow your boy, especially with all the imposters running around, Jesus likely being one of them? -
@kingblaze84
Jesus unable to live up to expectations according to whom...? or man? When Jesus came, the OT scholars...as well as his disciples...was expecting him to establish a kingdom of political significance; a headquarters of sorts, but was mistaken to think that this kingdom was physical. Jesus said he was going to destroy the temple and "build it in 3 days". It was understood as something that was physical...not spiritual. When Jesus said you must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, the people of his time took it to be physical...not spiritual...saying in John 6:52, "Then the Jews argue sharply among themselves,"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"". Jesus tells Nicodemus you must be "born again" and he thought it meant "crawling back into the ? " and coming back out.
I'm basing my answer on those who call themselves the Messiah of the Bible. If some claims to be Buddha, wouldn't you want to base their claims to be associated with Buddhism? You wouldn't reference a different religion.
Let's just say I'm wrong...which I don't mind being...then as the saying goes in my circle...Jesus lied and we are all still in sin. We still have to deal with our selfish tendancies apart from spiritual guidance. We will create a Hell disguised as Heaven by our own shortcomings to live and die in because ? 's Gift to the world did not deliver. And anyone with physical power and influence will get their utopia.
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alissowack wrote: »@kingblaze84
Jesus unable to live up to expectations according to whom...? or man? When Jesus came, the OT scholars...as well as his disciples...was expecting him to establish a kingdom of political significance; a headquarters of sorts, but was mistaken to think that this kingdom was physical. Jesus said he was going to destroy the temple and "build it in 3 days". It was understood as something that was physical...not spiritual. When Jesus said you must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, the people of his time took it to be physical...not spiritual...saying in John 6:52, "Then the Jews argue sharply among themselves,"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"". Jesus tells Nicodemus you must be "born again" and he thought it meant "crawling back into the ? " and coming back out.
I'm basing my answer on those who call themselves the Messiah of the Bible. If some claims to be Buddha, wouldn't you want to base their claims to be associated with Buddhism? You wouldn't reference a different religion.
Let's just say I'm wrong...which I don't mind being...then as the saying goes in my circle...Jesus lied and we are all still in sin. We still have to deal with our selfish tendancies apart from spiritual guidance. We will create a Hell disguised as Heaven by our own shortcomings to live and die in because ? 's Gift to the world did not deliver. And anyone with physical power and influence will get their utopia.
That's the thing about those OT scholars and modern day OT scholars, they were and are right about Jesus not living up to the expectations of the Old Testament. The OT prophecies were mostly about EARTH being saved (world peace)and united into worshipping one single ? , and that hasn't happened after all this time. This is why Christianity isn't taken seriously in most parts of the world, and people generally have no reason to believe he was a messiah or savior. Jesus may have meant his "kingdom" to be spiritual but the OT prophecies made clear action was supposed to happen on Earth as well. Therefore, Jesus is not much more impressive then David Shayler or Inri Christo. Jesus was more charismatic then David Shayler (most likely), but world peace is still not here. Neither are "The One".
And assuming you are wrong on Jesus being messiah (you are according to your own holy book), the question of sin is still a debatable one. What is sin, and what isn't? Some cultures have different versions of what is bad behavior and what is good behavior. Humans were born to be selfish for the most part, look at the debts governments run up and all the pollution we create for the world. So to judge humans for being "sinful" and selfish, when we were DESIGNED to be those things, is extremely hypocritical for the ? you believe in.
Humans, for the most part, will not change much. They will still murder, steal for land, and do worse. Ironically, Christian nations have some of the worst murder and ? rates in the world. Israel, part of the "holy land", is famous worldwide for the atrocities and war crimes it inflicts upon the Palestinians. Deep, deep irony. -
i hope this helps somebody peep the knowledge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQNT6ZHryyk
