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10 Commandments - Thou Shall Not Murder

VIBEVIBE Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 2011 in R & R (Religion and Race)
God gave direct commandments to Moses and one of them was, "thou shall not murder". No type of murder is accepted, this is seen in Exodus when God is speaking about slaves or people being killed on accident, that the killer will be put to death for those killings.

Is murder and killing, biblically, any different?

After God gives Moses the 10 Commandments, God's people decided (well Aaron did) to make a golden calf as an idol, which upsets God. God wants them destroyed but Moses sways God's decision. Then this..

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

Killing, which is a sin in the bible. These people were killed for honoring this golden calf as an idol. Isn't this considered murder? Is there a difference between a killing and a murder? 3,000 people were slaughtered.

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.


Now here we have a great sin committed but it isn't murder, it's the idolatry of the golden calf. Not only does Moses try to atone for this "great sin" of the idol, God strikes them all with a plague.

Now how is murder acceptable but the golden calf is inexcusable? Also, who is he striking down with plagues if the previous verse they all killed 3,000 for the same exact thing?

This chapter doesn't make any sense at all.

Again, what is the difference between murder and killing for this chapter?

Why did they murder 3,000 people? If it was for the idol, which it seems it is, then all those people should be dead. Why did God strike his own people with a plague then?
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Replies

  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    well.. earlier it just says the people were worshiping the calf. Moses came and asked who ever would stand up for God to rally with him. The levites came with him. it never said they were innocent it just that they would stand up for God when asked. They killed the 3,000 to purge their tribe of the unrepentant people, and the plague was the punishment for the people who worshiped the calf but "repented"
  • ChikeChike Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    inb4people try to justify wars by trying to differentiate murder from killing.
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    it is also interesting to think about the differences in the old and new testament. In the old God would tell people to kill the un-godly. In the new testament the un-godly almost always kill the people of God
  • VIBEVIBE Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Chike wrote: »
    inb4people try to justify wars by ignoring the 1rst commandment

    What does that have to do with murder though? I see God punished with a plague, which isn't murder. But these people, who God never said to kill, killed. Moses made that decision on his own and it seems like he liked to do that in the bible.

    I understand the what is being stated, but why murder when there's a Commandment against that? It wasn't self defense, it was anger and hatred and jealously - all that lead to "sins" correct?

    @Drgoo, they repented why the fuck mistreat them? So that means ain't no one gonna get away without a scratch then. I repent God! "I don't give a fuck, I'm still gonna strike you down with something horrible!!!"

    Fucking joke bro, seriously.
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    @Drgoo, they repented why the fuck mistreat them? So that means ain't no one gonna get away without a scratch then. I repent God! "I don't give a fuck, I'm still gonna strike you down with something horrible!!!"

    Fucking joke bro, seriously.

    well they weren't killed. They just had some hardships.
    Even in everyday life. If you are caught doing a crime 9 chances out of ten you'll get punished for it even if you are repentant for your actions. You'll have less of a chance to get the maximum if you show remorse.

    they didn't get the maximum

    living through a plague > being stabbed to death.
  • VIBEVIBE Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Drgoo0285 wrote: »
    well they weren't killed. They just had some hardships.
    Even in everyday life. If you are caught doing a crime 9 chances out of ten you'll get punished for it even if you are repentant for your actions. You'll have less of a chance to get the maximum if you show remorse.

    they didn't get the maximum

    living through a plague > being stabbed to death.

    So what kind of message is this for believers today? Even if you repent, you aren't forgiven. God holds a grudge and will make you pay. So there is no actual forgiveness at all.
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    So what kind of message is this for believers today? Even if you repent, you aren't forgiven. God holds a grudge and will make you pay. So there is no actual forgiveness at all.

    What kind of message would it send if all you had to do was repent ,you could do anything you wanted and you suffered no consequences for your actions?
  • shootemwonshootemwon Posts: 4,635 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    "Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man from the one you pray to."

    -George Carlin

    /thread
  • VIBEVIBE Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Drgoo0285 wrote: »
    What kind of message would it send if all you had to do was repent ,you could do anything you wanted and you suffered no consequences for your actions?

    Isn't that what forgiveness is? If I forgive my child for breaking a glass cup, should I still punish them? No, especially if it's only once which seemed to be the case here.

    Now if it's repetitive, I see a punishment.

    So if I ask for forgiveness, I repent, I'm still going to be punished by an all-loving God who "understands". How does that work?
  • ThaChozenWunThaChozenWun Posts: 9,390
    edited January 2011
    shootemwon wrote: »
    "Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man from the one you pray to."

    -George Carlin

    /thread

    Reopen thread

    GOAT COMEDIAN

    /thread again
  • alissowackalissowack Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    When people sinned in the Old Testament, it wasn't as if that at one point in life that they were morally without sin...then they do something that is considered sin. Before the Ten Commandments, man didn't know that they were sinners in the eyes of God. The commandments are not just rules you have to follow. It also serves as a reminder of man's standing with God.
    al-is-so-wack: Deplorable for hire.
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    Isn't that what forgiveness is? If I forgive my child for breaking a glass cup, should I still punish them? No, especially if it's only once which seemed to be the case here.

    Now if it's repetitive, I see a punishment.

    So if I ask for forgiveness, I repent, I'm still going to be punished by an all-loving God who "understands". How does that work?

    my guess is you do not have/work with children. A punishment does not mean you are not forgiven. it teaches kids there are consequences to your actions.

    If you caught your teenage son selling crack for the first time wouldn't you punish him?
  • VIBEVIBE Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Drgoo0285 wrote: »
    my guess is you do not have/work with children. A punishment does not mean you are not forgiven. it teaches kids there are consequences to your actions.

    If you caught your teenage son selling crack for the first time wouldn't you punish him?

    Your guess is wrong, I have 3 children. I don't punish my children on the first time, it's after I have to tell them more than 2 times I punish them. They're kids, what you tell them 20 minutes ago is completely gone out of their mind. Anyways...

    It's not about who punishes who, we're talking about a God who is supposedly "all-loving". This magician in the sky says you can ask for forgiveness and it will be forgiven, correct? If you are "forgiven" then why are you still punished by this all loving God?

    If you punched me and said, "Oh VIBE forgive me", I'll say "No problem" then I punch you in the face, would you consider I just forgave you or acted like an asshole?

    God is an asshole if he forgives then punishes. Might as well state, "No I don't forgive you, I punish you". There is obviously no forgiveness with God. Why do we ask for it then? It's bullshit and that's shown here. You stated they repented for the idol, which means they had to have asked God for forgiveness - that obviously fell on deaf ears and God didn't give a fuck.

    BTW, why is God punishing them for something that isn't a moral?
    ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

    TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

    THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

    FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

    These aren't morals but rules for a jealous God. But yet they got punished for it, but something that was actually broken in morality was murder...
    SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

    SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

    EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

    These are truthfully the only morals there are in the 10 Commandments. Everything else is just a rule for God. The last Commandment about coveting your neighbors shit is basically along the lines of do not steal or commit adultery.

    So only 3 real things for morality, the others are rules for a jealous God.

    So with that said, God punishes easily for something so petty - a rather petty human emotion. I can easily forgive someone for something this petty, most humans can excuse a lot of shit without punishment. Yet God cannot let this golden calf go? Really? This petty idol was deserving of 3,000 dead and the others plagued? That's laughable.

    God shares a petty ass human emotion, really? The same man who knows everything, created everything and all but yet cannot let a golden calf go but allow murder - as long as it's in his name?

    This is bullshit, lol it really is. Think about it, God is a human concept, God is in our minds. God shouldn't have these human emotions, God should be greater than that. He isn't, obviously.

    Murder in his name - SURE, OKAY!!!

    Worship a golden calf - kill people and get struck down with some sickness.

    Does that sound right to you? You think a court would allow murder but put you in prison for a golden calf?

    HEY, what about today? Why aren't people being killed for their idols?
  • alissowackalissowack Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    If being a sinner is just about comitting a crime against God, then it would be difficult to accept God's Forgiveness if it doesn't stop you from getting punished. However, I believe it is not. Also, if "all-loving" is suppose to mean that God is this infinite bundle of happy emotions, then I would be disappointed, too. I believe differently about this. To even put it in common terms, there is something "fake" about people who seem to be "loving" all the time. No matter how much someone hates their guts, they just turn around and smile and say, "I love you". They have no sense of the reasons for why someone might be upset. They may be in denial of their own insecurities so they make like insults don't hurt. Something is wrong with the world and it's going to take more than a bunch of "I love you"'s to fix it.
    al-is-so-wack: Deplorable for hire.
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    HEY, what about today? Why aren't people being killed for their idols?

    Well one the differences between, the new and old testament are at work here.

    Old testament was about psychical things you had to do to become holy i.e. sacrifices, food laws, and such . Humans could not do anything in themselves to be holy, so God gave us his son to be punished and die for our sins . We then become holy because Jesus changes our hearts.

    So under the old covenant it was more about a holy nation. In the new covenant it's more about being holy individuals.

    Now, if Bob down the street is worshiping an idol, you just pray for him...
  • Drgoo0285Drgoo0285 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    edited January 2011
    alissowack wrote: »
    If being a sinner is just about comitting a crime against God, then it would be difficult to accept God's Forgiveness if it doesn't stop you from getting punished. However, I believe it is not. Also, if "all-loving" is suppose to mean that God is this infinite bundle of happy emotions, then I would be disappointed, too. I believe differently about this. To even put it in common terms, there is something "fake" about people who seem to be "loving" all the time. No matter how much someone hates their guts, they just turn around and smile and say, "I love you". They have no sense of the reasons for why someone might be upset. They may be in denial of their own insecurities so they make like insults don't hurt. Something is wrong with the world and it's going to take more than a bunch of "I love you"'s to fix it.

    this...for real
  • The Lonious MonkThe Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Chike wrote: »
    inb4people try to justify wars by trying to differentiate murder from killing.

    Murder by definition is unlawful killing. If you are killing at the behest of the highest ranking authority, as part of a legally sanctioned conflict, or under circumstances where killing is legally permissable you by definition are not committing murder.
    Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
    But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
    When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
    as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

    m63Y62.gif
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    I've asked this question before in regards to god and his commissioning killing and his own killing:

    If you were to teach someone not to kill, would it better to only kill righteously or to have never killed at all?
  • Jabu_RuleJabu_Rule Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Murder by definition is unlawful killing. If you are killing at the behest of the highest ranking authority, as part of a legally sanctioned conflict, or under circumstances where killing is legally permissable you by definition are not committing murder.

    Tell that to the Nazi's. They were killing whole sale at the command of their leader. Most went to the hague
    beyonce-jay-z-blue-ivy-bikes-7e423fe2-53e3-4784-9386-73b60ac360f5.jpg
  • John PrewettJohn Prewett Posts: 755
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    Your guess is wrong, I have 3 children. ....................

    Wonderful.

    Did you give them any rules when they were toddlers ["don't go out of the yard alone"]
    that you rescinded when they became older ?

    Are you pleased when they show faith in you ?

    Would you be pleased if they thought you a liar ?

    Are you concerned when one of your children mistreats a sibling ?

    Do you want your children to "love one another" ?

    While they were toddlers, did you think they could understand anything/everything you knew ?

    Concerning the death/killing of OT:

    Do you realize that from God's POV, "death" is just a transition ?

    That our physical life in this world is but a "drop in the bucket" ?
  • GSonIIGSonII Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Wrath makes no sense as a form of punishment, especially if you are looking at it as controlled or fair. For instance, a child born into the world with an incurable disease would bring just as much or more pain and punishment on the people that love that child as the plague brought on these killers. The child has done nothing, the killers have killed. So, to ask why is trying to make sense of something that will not make sense to a clear thinker. I hope I am wrong about the bible because so many people believe that the bible explains God for them but I just don't see it that way. The bible makes little to no sense for large portions of the ride.
  • GSonIIGSonII Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    alissowack wrote: »
    If being a sinner is just about comitting a crime against God, then it would be difficult to accept God's Forgiveness if it doesn't stop you from getting punished. However, I believe it is not. Also, if "all-loving" is suppose to mean that God is this infinite bundle of happy emotions, then I would be disappointed, too. I believe differently about this. To even put it in common terms, there is something "fake" about people who seem to be "loving" all the time. No matter how much someone hates their guts, they just turn around and smile and say, "I love you". They have no sense of the reasons for why someone might be upset. They may be in denial of their own insecurities so they make like insults don't hurt. Something is wrong with the world and it's going to take more than a bunch of "I love you"'s to fix it.

    What has really been fixed? Even when he supposedly sent his only begotten son that didn't fix anything feasible. There is a difference between kicking knowledge and making valid points my friend. Lastly, it says somewhere in the bible that God forgives 70x's7 times or something like that. Not too many people commit the same sin that many times and it sure was not done here. The truth is just to get mad to the point of kill everybody wrath because something happens when bible people say you are all-knowing does not make any sense.
  • IsraelitesIsraelites Posts: 280
    edited January 2011
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    So what kind of message is this for believers today? Even if you repent, you aren't forgiven. God holds a grudge and will make you pay. So there is no actual forgiveness at all.

    if you believe this, you really need to get you some understanding of the book, & if you really feel this way, why are you so bothered by what's written, we all get it bro, your an atheist or whatever you want to call yourself... why do you continue to let the book upset you? Just let it go, you remind me of the parable of the sowing seed.



    Luke 8:5-18 (King James Version)

    5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

    6And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

    7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

    8And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    9And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

    10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

    12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

    15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    16No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

    17For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

    18Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
  • Jabu_RuleJabu_Rule Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2011
    Israelites wrote: »
    if you believe this, you really need to get you some understanding of the book, & if you really feel this way, why are you so bothered by what's written, we all get it bro, your an atheist or whatever you want to call yourself... why do you continue to let the book upset you?

    These types of arguments are really weak and repetitive. Maybe these sorts of topics just interest him because it is everywhere. This is the only place that i've been able to have such honest discussions out side of the real world. You can flesh out all of your concerns or ideas here. This is a Race & Religion board. The people who grew up around religion no matter if they were ever religious, feel that topics like these which influence world policy are important to them because they see something very wrong with it's hold on society..

    You can't let go of something that affects the way you live your life which includes your relations with highly religious family and communities. Unless people are walking around professing their hate for religion (the opposite of what religious people do often and loudly) i see noting wrong with this illuminating discussions.
    beyonce-jay-z-blue-ivy-bikes-7e423fe2-53e3-4784-9386-73b60ac360f5.jpg
  • IsraelitesIsraelites Posts: 280
    edited January 2011
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    These types of arguments are really weak and repetitive. Maybe these sorts of topics just interest him because it is everywhere. This is the only place that i've been able to have such honest discussions out side of the real world. You can flesh out all of your concerns or ideas here. This is a Race & Religion board. The people who grew up around religion no matter if they were ever religious, feel that topics like these which influence world policy are important to them because they see something very wrong with it's hold on society..

    You can't let go of something that affects the way you live your life which includes your relations with highly religious family and communities. Unless people are walking around professing their hate for religion (the opposite of what religious people do often and loudly) i see noting wrong with this illuminating discussions.

    I understand your point, but this is why I asked vibe, because I have a small rapport w/the brother & trust me, I could let go of something I didn't believe in with no problem even if it wasn't on the up & up w/others around me. Religious folks are the worst!
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